I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why

[Mira]

For me the huge unanswered question is did Murphy or Thomas ask Harry why he won't leave the island?   We know they visited him, why wasn't there a come to Jesus moment when they confronted him with a "look people are dying left and right we need you!"   If there was, did Harry answer them
truthfully?  He could have answered one of three ways, 1] "this is the only place where the pain in my head won't kill me." 2] "Mab will kill me if I leave, she has me watched..." 3] " The defenses of the island are in a neglected state, if I leave now, worse than the Fomen will escape.."  The one thing I doubt he'd say would be he didn't give a crap about what was happening back in Chicago...

My other question is why neither never defended his reasons for not being there to Butters?  Butters is a just and intelligent man, if he knew the above reasons he may get frustrated because he felt they were powerless, but he wouldn't have blamed Harry like he did.

We all know Murphy by now and it is unlikely that if she felt Harry was really needed she wouldn't have pinned him to the wall until she got an answer as to why he wasn't coming to their aid... So
here is an explanation most will not like...  She may feel that they ran things pretty well when they thought Harry was dead.. May even have liked the power that brought, the importance, after no longer being a police officer, she didn't want to play second fiddle to Harry...  Or for all her talk of trust, still a part of her never fully trusted Harry after he became Knight.   Otherwise I cannot account for the attitude of Butters towards Harry..   There is a missing part to this puzzle...

[nadia.skylark]

You know, at the end of book 14, I think it is reasonable to assume that Butters just expect Harry to return to Chicago after a few days at the island, so he did not ask. I mean, who could think up a psychic parasite that could blow up Harry's head? Besides, even Harry thinks that Molly would have taken the parasite out soon enough. Not even Harry expect to be isolated at the island for the entire year. If this kind of thinking is also the same with Murphy and Thomas, it is also reasonable for Murphy and Thomas not to say anything. Molly is going to cure Harry soon anyway, why say so much?

Yeah, but it's been over a year. By this point, Butters should have asked, and I don't see why Thomas or Murphy wouldn't have explained.

But Mab keep Molly away, probably on purpose. Days drag into weeks and weeks to months. One mistake leads to another and Butters misunderstanding grow bigger and bigger. Butters forgot to ask while Murphy and Thomas forgot to tell. After a few months, explaining would not work anymore.

Why wouldn't explaining work? I mean, imagine a parallel situation: Wizard A (who doesn't have access to Harry's emergency contacts/power sources) has always promised to defend New York. However, he hasn't been around for six months and Medical Examiner B is thinking that he's just abandoned him. However, he knows Wizard's Friend C, and when he asks her about what's happening, Wizard's Friend C says that Wizard A broke his back six months ago, and can't leave his bed! Now, to me, that seems like a really good reason not to be running around fighting bad guys, and it also seems to me that if Medical Examiner B doesn't care about this reason and blames Wizard A anyway, then Medical Examiner B is a pretty awful person.

On Murphy's side. Her wavering is her dying struggle. It is only her instinctive self defense mechanism at work, which is why it is as harsh as it is transcient. CD is only about 24 hours and Murphy already fully trusted Harry again by the end of it. She wanted Harry back so much, I suspect even if Harry is an imposter or being controlled by Mab, she'll be the first to be fooled, well,  as long as Harry don't show any obvious flaw. Which is probably why she need to act harsh at the start, she would not have the heart to be harsh otherwise.

I bought this in Ghost Story. It's too convenient in Cold Days. Seriously, in Ghost Story it's a problem, but one that everyone can work through when there's a crisis. In Cold Days, it only comes up when it wouldn't be a problem, and to me that doesn't feel right. Also, Murphy did not trust Harry by the end of Cold Days! That's the part where she tells him that he's already become a monster! (She also says that she will follow him to hell, true, but that's very easy to read as a statement aimed at manipulating Harry into not going down that route.)

Thomas's first reaction upon meeting Harry is also not very welcoming anyway. Compare to Thomas's first greeting in the water beetle, Murphy harsh opening seems normal. At least Murphy don't suspect Harry as some kind of a shapeshifter.

Thomas's reaction was perfectly natural. He was distrusting and he was pissed, for good reason. Murphy's behavior, by contrast, comes off as manipulative. And I don't know why Murphy didn't suspect Harry of being a shapeshifter--it would have made more sense.

For me the huge unanswered question is did Murphy or Thomas ask Harry why he won't leave the island?   We know they visited him, why wasn't there a come to Jesus moment when they confronted him with a "look people are dying left and right we need you!"   If there was, did Harry answer them
truthfully?  He could have answered one of three ways, 1] "this is the only place where the pain in my head won't kill me." 2] "Mab will kill me if I leave, she has me watched..." 3] " The defenses of the island are in a neglected state, if I leave now, worse than the Fomen will escape.."  The one thing I doubt he'd say would be he didn't give a crap about what was happening back in Chicago...

I'm reasonably sure Harry told Thomas, at least, about the parasite at the end of Cold Days, but I don't have my book right now so I can't check. And I had certainly been under the impression that Murphy knew about the parasite.

My other question is why neither never defended his reasons for not being there to Butters?  Butters is a just and intelligent man, if he knew the above reasons he may get frustrated because he felt they were powerless, but he wouldn't have blamed Harry like he did.

Yeah, this is an issue, for Murphy especially. If Butters didn't talk about his distrust of Harry in front of Thomas, he would have no way to know that there was a problem, but Skin Game made it clear that Murphy did know about Butters' issues with Harry.

We all know Murphy by now and it is unlikely that if she felt Harry was really needed she wouldn't have pinned him to the wall until she got an answer as to why he wasn't coming to their aid... So
here is an explanation most will not like...  She may feel that they ran things pretty well when they thought Harry was dead.. May even have liked the power that brought, the importance, after no longer being a police officer, she didn't want to play second fiddle to Harry...  Or for all her talk of trust, still a part of her never fully trusted Harry after he became Knight.   Otherwise I cannot account for the attitude of Butters towards Harry..   There is a missing part to this puzzle...

This may be the case. Certainly, something's off with the whole thing.

[morriswalters]

Harry wouldn't tell his left hand what his right hand was doing unless he just had to.  The has been an ongoing theme. If your not doing something because you have a problem, and people could use that information, you don't broadcast it.  Better to leave them guessing.  Butter's isn't owed anything. 

Butter's suffers from pedestal disease.  He put Harry up on one and Harry isn't living up to Butter's expectations.  But, by the time of Skin Game Harry can't explain to Butters the reasons for the things that are happening.  Anduriel  is listening.

I'm reasonably sure Harry told Thomas, at least, about the parasite at the end of Cold Days, but I don't have my book right now so I can't check. And I had certainly been under the impression that Murphy knew about the parasite.

Thomas knew.  Don't know about Murphy.

[nadia.skylark]

Harry wouldn't tell his left hand what his right hand was doing unless he just had to.  The has been an ongoing theme. If your not doing something because you have a problem, and people could use that information, you don't broadcast it.  Better to leave them guessing.  Butter's isn't owed anything. 

Butter's suffers from pedestal disease.  He put Harry up on one and Harry isn't living up to Butter's expectations.

Very true.

But, by the time of Skin Game Harry can't explain to Butters the reasons for the things that are happening.  Anduriel  is listening.

Also true, but my contention is that Butters should have been able to get an explanation before that--by asking Murphy or Thomas why Harry wasn't around, or trying to get a message to him--and that I can't think of a reason for him not doing so that doesn't cast Butters in a bad light.

[Mira]

Harry wouldn't tell his left hand what his right hand was doing unless he just had to.  The has been an ongoing theme. If your not doing something because you have a problem, and people could use that information, you don't broadcast it.  Better to leave them guessing.  Butter's isn't owed anything. 

Butter's suffers from pedestal disease.  He put Harry up on one and Harry isn't living up to Butter's expectations.  But, by the time of Skin Game Harry can't explain to Butters the reasons for the things that are happening.  Anduriel  is listening.Thomas knew.  Don't know about Murphy.

But I doubt that Butters would have kept silent!  That is the point, especially with young kids being
kidnapped left right and center...  At the very least he would have bitched to Murphy about it.  I don't think Butters had Harry on a pedestal so much as he had always been understanding..  It is out of character for Butters to act as he did, not asking questions first as to why, just being angry.   I think Bob may have had something to do with it...  He has a real hate/fear thing going on with Mab, so would suspect the worst for Harry and put some ideas into Butters' head... I doubt that fear that Andriel was listening was a factor, because the problem wasn't with the Fallen, it was with the Foman ..   The degree of the anger Butters displays isn't rational unless he is being fed the wrong information as to why Harry is gone, this could have come from Bob...   I doubt he would have kept his mouth shut about it, I just wonder why neither Murphy nor Thomas set him straight.

[nadia.skylark]

But I doubt that Butters would have kept silent!  That is the point, especially with young kids being
kidnapped left right and center...  At the very least he would have bitched to Murphy about it.

This.

It is out of character for Butters to act as he did, not asking questions first as to why, just being angry.

Also this.

I think Bob may have had something to do with it...  He has a real hate/fear thing going on with Mab, so would suspect the worst for Harry and put some ideas into Butters' head...

Maybe, but what Bob's worried about doesn't actually line up too well with Butters' stated suspicions--Bob is worried that the Winter Knight mantle is going to change Harry, but Butters has said that what he was worried about is that Harry came back wrong from being dead, which is a different thing.

[morriswalters]

But I doubt that Butters would have kept silent!  That is the point, especially with young kids being
kidnapped left right and center...  At the very least he would have bitched to Murphy about it.  I don't think Butters had Harry on a pedestal so much as he had always been understanding..  It is out of character for Butters to act as he did, not asking questions first as to why, just being angry.   I think Bob may have had something to do with it...  He has a real hate/fear thing going on with Mab, so would suspect the worst for Harry and put some ideas into Butters' head... I doubt that fear that Andriel was listening was a factor, because the problem wasn't with the Fallen, it was with the Foman ..   The degree of the anger Butters displays isn't rational unless he is being fed the wrong information as to why Harry is gone, this could have come from Bob...   I doubt he would have kept his mouth shut about it, I just wonder why neither Murphy nor Thomas set him straight.

Putting it in the context of Skin Games. Anduriel is precisely the point.  Butters confronts Harry and Harry tells him that he can't tell him.

"So you tell me, Harry.  Should I be anxious about Superman hanging out with Luthor?  When I find out more about what you're dragging Karrin into, is it going to make me less worried?  Because I'm not sure I know you anymore."
It was maybe fifteen seconds before I could answer.
"It isn't going to make you any less worried," I said quietly. "And I still can't talk to you about it."

So Butter's doesn't keep silent. And Harry stonewalls him. There is about two pages of dialog that covers most of the points raised here prior to the part I quote.   

Bob is FUD on the hoof.  Jim uses him both as a talking head and as an all around confuser.

[nadia.skylark]

Putting it in the context of Skin Games. Anduriel is precisely the point.  Butters confronts Harry and Harry tells him that he can't tell him.

I think what's being said here (and certainly what I'm saying) is that Butters should/would have said something before Skin Game.

Bob is FUD on the hoof.

What is FUD?

[Mira]

Putting it in the context of Skin Games. Anduriel is precisely the point.  Butters confronts Harry and Harry tells him that he can't tell him.

But that is a little late, Butters is already angry.... If he had been in the loop in the first place, i.e. clued in by Murphy who presumably is leading the fight against the Foman, he wouldn't have had to confront him nor would he have a reason to be afraid of him..  Even if Harry cannot tell him the exact reason, Butters would understand that it is a good one...   

So Butter's doesn't keep silent. And Harry stonewalls him. There is about two pages of dialog that covers most of the points raised here prior to the part I quote.   

Bob is FUD on the hoof.  Jim uses him both as a talking head and as an all around confuser

You are missing the whole point...  If things had been explained to Butters a couple of months or so before the big chase in Skin Game, the chase wouldn't have happened in the first place because if Butters knew there was a good reason for Harry to be away, even if he couldn't tell him at that point in Skin Game what it was, no chase, no FUD moment, end of story....

I think what's being said here (and certainly what I'm saying) is that Butters should/would have said something before Skin Game.

Exactly,  his anger and fear has been building up way before the chase in Skin Game...  Murphy and Thomas both know there is a good reason for Harry to be staying on the island..  If Murphy was playing leader of their defense group, no reason to think she wasn't, she was in Ghost Story, as a good leader she should have been able to read Butters... Then she should have took him to one side and even if she couldn't tell him exactly why Harry was away, say that there was a very good reason that will be explained later... Or who knows Butters may even have come to her...  Something is missing in this picture,  understood Butters is very upset about those kids, however he has always been the most sensible of men, thus he may not like Harry not being there, but at the same time understand it isn't really Harry's choice... 

[morriswalters]

FUD=fear, uncertainty, and doom.

You are missing the whole point...  If things had been explained to Butters a couple of months or so before the big chase in Skin Game, the chase wouldn't have happened in the first place because if Butters knew there was a good reason for Harry to be away, even if he couldn't tell him at that point in Skin Game what it was, no chase, no FUD moment, end of story....

On my reread of chapter one,  in no particular order, Mab has used the Lake ice to keep people out.  She's blocked access to Molly, she manipulated Harry's messages to his friends to Molly to sow distrust.  She has effectively kept him from hooking up to his allies as time dragged by.  Harry never meant to be there for all that time.  Thank Mab.  Murphy may or may not have known of the parasite.  Bob conveniently didn't know.  Thomas is Thomas.  As to why Murphy didn't council him, maybe she did and it wasn't sufficient.  Jim telegraphs this at the beginning.  Harry is worrying about trust and who he should trust.

[Mira]

FUD=fear, uncertainty, and doom.On my reread of chapter one,  in no particular order, Mab has used the Lake ice to keep people out.  She's blocked access to Molly, she manipulated Harry's messages to his friends to Molly to sow distrust.  She has effectively kept him from hooking up to his allies as time dragged by.  Harry never meant to be there for all that time.  Thank Mab.  Murphy may or may not have known of the parasite.  Bob conveniently didn't know.  Thomas is Thomas.  As to why Murphy didn't council him, maybe she did and it wasn't sufficient.  Jim telegraphs this at the beginning.  Harry is worrying about trust and who he should trust.

That is the whole point!  Since both Thomas and Murphy managed to get through, they knew it wasn't Harry's doing.  She claims to trust him.. It isn't about who Harry trusts, it is about why the message never got to Butters..  Yes, once Mab fetches him from the island it is about who Harry trusts because he knows there are very few places where he can set out the facts and not be over heard.

[morriswalters]

Why did Butters need to know?  It isn't a problem that he can solve, and the more people who know the greater the likelihood that the information might leak and thus move Harry from the, unknown status, column to the, not a threat currently, column. The rest is about the book as a writer, so I've spoilered it.

(click to show/hide)

The point isn't who Harry trusts, rather that trust is the theme of the book. If your looking for motivation for Jim's choice of why there need be a chase, then look at it as a way to explore trust.  Trust involves an element of faith.  Faith that the person your trusting deserves that trust.  If you constantly need reassuring then you lack that element of faith.

Butters steps over a line.  Rather than walking away or creating distance until he could find clarity he turns into a snoop.  As a character I don't like Butters.  Anyone who did what he did in my personal space would find himself an outsider.  But it's Jim's book and Jim's choice.

[Mira]

Why did Butters need to know?  It isn't a problem that he can solve, and the more people who know the greater the likelihood that the information might leak and thus move Harry from the, unknown status, column to the, not a threat currently, column. The rest is about the book as a writer, so I've spoilered it.

 Again, you are missing the point, it isn't about what happened in Skin Game.. Butters was upset because of the fight with the Fomen was not going well, children were disappearing, Harry was no where to be seen or there to help, this made him angry at Harry...  Speculating here, he expressed that to Bob who may have planted some things about Mab and the Winter Knight gig that made him both scared of and mistrustful of Harry...  This set up the chase that almost blew everything in Skin Game...  ALL or most may have been prevented if when he vented Murphy or Thomas spoke up, it isn't that Harry doesn't want to be there, he cannot be there...  And we know that Butters must have said something because Murphy told Harry that Butters had problems with him because of the fight with the Fomen and his helplessness...  Reassurance that Harry was still Harry could have gone a long way to prevent the panic chase that almost ended in disaster... In fact the fact that neither Murphy nor Thomas did anything to reassure Butters before hand that it wasn't Harry's choice not to be there in the fight against the Fomen played right into Nic's hands...

[morriswalters]

I've said this is about trust.  I'll let the book speak.

"You heard that, huh?" I asked.
"Yeah," she said.  "I did."
She crossed to the refrigerator, opened it, and took out a jug of orange juice. 
She got a plastic drinking glass out of the cupboard  and poured it full. 
Then she passed the juice to me.
I grimaced and drank some. 
"You agree with him?"
"I understand him," she said.
"But do you agree?"
"I trust you," she said.

This just after Butters expresses his doubts.  Does this read like Murphy knows more than Butters?  Or is framed to show that Murphy is working off of her understanding of Harry and not any knowledge?

[Mira]

I've said this is about trust.  I'll let the book speak.This just after Butters expresses his doubts.  Does this read like Murphy knows more than Butters?  Or is framed to show that Murphy is working off of her understanding of Harry and not any knowledge?

She did visit him on the island.... That gives her more knowledge...  I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't have said anything to him about the fight against the Fomen..  If she trusts him, she'd know he had a good reason for not leaving the island, thus not let Butters escalate into the state of mistrust and fear he arrived at...