I think Murphy is going to get killed here is why

[huangjimmy108]

Last I checked being a Wizard doesn't magically (heh) negate decades worth of abandonment issues, guilt complexes, and self-depreciation, so what the heck are you on about?

A wizard is a wise man, not just some spellslinger. A wizard is expected to understand matters, not brute force things which is Harry often do during the early series.

To understand oneself and to understand others and ultimately to understand the universe. That is what wizards are. Casting spells is the least of a wizard's role. Wisdom and intelligence is the main portion.

Making a mistake is not a sin , but not learning from those mistake defenitely is a sin. That is what the gatekeeper say in book 4.

If 6 years has gone by and Harry still can't recognize that Murphy is manipulating him, well, what is Harry been learning all this time? Not to mention that he is still get manipulated in book 14 in some people's opinion.

What kind of a stupid protagonist Harry is actually?

[nadia.skylark]

A wizard is a wise man, not just some spellslinger. A wizard is expected to understand matters,

You mean, like understanding that when a woman takes off her clothes for you, she's hitting on you? Because as I recall, Harry didn't understand that one until it was pointed out to him.

To understand oneself and to understand others and ultimately to understand the universe. That is what wizards are. Casting spells is the least of a wizard's role. Wisdom and intelligence is the main portion.

I know that Harry goes on about this in Storm Front, but Jim has gone on record saying that he wrote Harry as the magical equivalent of a plumber, so I chalk it up to early installment weirdness.

Making a mistake is not a sin , but not learning from those mistake defenitely is a sin. That is what the gatekeeper say in book 4.

When did Harry not learn from his mistake? He hasn't let Murphy or any of his other allies hit him after Fool Moon--when she tried it (albeit under the influence of mind control) he defended himself and knocked her out.

If 6 years has gone by and Harry still can't recognize that Murphy is manipulating him, well, what is Harry been learning all this time?

I'll repeat myself. Murphy is not manipulating Harry for most of the books. She manipulated him in one to three of them. She definitely manipulated him in Storm Front--even Harry acknowledged that. She didn't manipulate him in Fool Moon--she assaulted him, which is a different thing. She didn't manipulate him in Grave Peril, Summer Knight, Death Masks, Blood Rites, Dead Beat, Proven Guilty, White Night, Small Favor, Turn Coat, Changes, or Ghost Story. I view her as manipulating Harry in Cold Days, but I have acknowledged that that is not what Jim intended. As a direct result of my interpretation of her behavior in Cold Days, I also believe that she manipulated Harry in Skin Game.

Not to mention that he is still get manipulated in book 14 in some people's opinion.

There's a quote from Murphy in Turn Coat that is appropriate here.

"The reason treachery is so reveiled," she [Murphy] said in a careful tone of voice, "is because it usually comes from someone you didn't think could possibly do such a thing.”

Harry is in a position to get manipulated by Murphy because it would never occur to him that she would do so. She's spent the last 11 books demonstrating that he could trust her.

[huangjimmy108]

You mean, like understanding that when a woman takes off her clothes for you, she's hitting on you? Because as I recall, Harry didn't understand that one until it was pointed out to him.

I know that Harry goes on about this in Storm Front, but Jim has gone on record saying that he wrote Harry as the magical equivalent of a plumber, so I chalk it up to early installment weirdness.

When did Harry not learn from his mistake? He hasn't let Murphy or any of his other allies hit him after Fool Moon--when she tried it (albeit under the influence of mind control) he defended himself and knocked her out.

I'll repeat myself. Murphy is not manipulating Harry for most of the books. She manipulated him in one to three of them. She definitely manipulated him in Storm Front--even Harry acknowledged that. She didn't manipulate him in Fool Moon--she assaulted him, which is a different thing. She didn't manipulate him in Grave Peril, Summer Knight, Death Masks, Blood Rites, Dead Beat, Proven Guilty, White Night, Small Favor, Turn Coat, Changes, or Ghost Story. I view her as manipulating Harry in Cold Days, but I have acknowledged that that is not what Jim intended. As a direct result of my interpretation of her behavior in Cold Days, I also believe that she manipulated Harry in Skin Game.

There's a quote from Murphy in Turn Coat that is appropriate here.  Harry is in a position to get manipulated by Murphy because it would never occur to him that she would do so. She's spent the last 11 books demonstrating that he could trust her.

Not understanding on the spot is a different thing from not able to understand even after 6 years. True, Thomas need to remind Harry about it, but given time Harry should be able to understand by himself. He would have lost the moment, but he should understand eventually. And by eventually I mean in a matter of days or at most weeks, not years.

This kind of thing happened in book 7. When Murphy first come to Harry and ask him to water her plants while she went with Kincaid to Hawaii, Harry just accepts it literally. Later on though, Harry himself realize that Murphy is trying to give him a chance. Had Harry try to stop her from going, there is a good chance Murphy might say yes. This kind of self understanding and realization is Harry's safing grace.

This is what I am trying to say. Harry is slow and he can make silly mistakes, but if 6 years pass and he is still clueless, it is too much already. His guilty complex and weakness to women can and probably will blind his judgement on occasion, but this lapse in judgement should be temporary. It definitely could not possibly last for 6 years.

So when book 8 comes along and Murphy say  she had apologize for the events in Full Moon and Harry accepted it and even feel ashame for digging it up in an argument, then the matter should be settled as such. We don't really need to have the event shown to us on the books explicitly.

[magnuskn]

" In Norse mythology, the Valkyries were beautiful young women who served both as Odin's messengers and as escorts to the souls of warriors killed in battle. In fact, Valkyries means "choosers of the slain." During battle, they would ride upon winged horses and, surveying the field, select brave warriors to die. Then they would transport these souls to Valhalla, Odin's hall. Once in the afterlife, the brave souls were enlisted to fight in the battle of Ragnarok, an apocalyptic conflict signaling the end of the world."

I think that she will get killed, but not leave the stories.  I think that she will die on the field of battle, and be raised, and empowered by Odin as one of his soldiers.  Her youth, and health will be restored, plus enhanced speed, strength, and durability.  She will give the Winter Knight a run for his money in pure hand to hand combat.

Come to think of it there could be other characters who have died that we might see later that were enlisted by Odin...  Susan for example.  Or Morgan...  I mean anyone Jim decides to bring back now has a doorway since we know that Odin, and Valkyries exist.

I said that two years ago. ^^

[morriswalters]

Isn't Murphy a Catholic?

[Mira]

Isn't Murphy a Catholic?

She is, and maybe she has a choice before her...  To become a living Valkyrie or a spirit helping helping her father, or beyond to Judgement..  That is if she does die..

[morriswalters]

Yeah I thought so.  It Jim's book but, everything can't be fan service.

[Mira]

Yeah I thought so.  It Jim's book but, everything can't be fan service.

  Yeah, the problem gets to be a bit controversial...    Murphy is a Catholic, but she isn't particularly religious, in other words how often have we read that she was attending Mass on Sunday or even religious holidays, I don't remember one... Unlike Michael, who does and even tried to get Harry to go with him..  But is that enough for her to go Valkyrie?  Or since she has known all along that the likes of Gard exist and it didn't compromise her faith,  she can rationalize that she can be a Valkyrie and remain in good standing with her religious choice?  I guess what I am saying it could be offensive to some of Jim's readers but not to the character, Murphy..

[nadia.skylark]

Not understanding on the spot is a different thing from not able to understand even after 6 years. True, Thomas need to remind Harry about it, but given time Harry should be able to understand by himself. He would have lost the moment, but he should understand eventually. And by eventually I mean in a matter of days or at most weeks, not years.

This kind of thing happened in book 7. When Murphy first come to Harry and ask him to water her plants while she went with Kincaid to Hawaii, Harry just accepts it literally. Later on though, Harry himself realize that Murphy is trying to give him a chance. Had Harry try to stop her from going, there is a good chance Murphy might say yes. This kind of self understanding and realization is Harry's safing grace.

This is what I am trying to say. Harry is slow and he can make silly mistakes, but if 6 years pass and he is still clueless, it is too much already. His guilty complex and weakness to women can and probably will blind his judgement on occasion, but this lapse in judgement should be temporary. It definitely could not possibly last for 6 years.

So when book 8 comes along and Murphy say  she had apologize for the events in Full Moon and Harry accepted it and even feel ashame for digging it up in an argument, then the matter should be settled as such. We don't really need to have the event shown to us on the books explicitly.

I'm reasonably confident that I've said this already, but just in case, I'll say it again:

There are two arguments against this.

1) Harry blamed himself for Elaine for 10 years, even though that's definitely not his fault, and 10 years is definitely longer than 6 years. So Harry is absolutely capable of thinking something is his fault even thought it really isn't for 6 years.

2) Another reason he didn't realize that Murphy was in the wrong there was because he wasn't thinking about it in those 6 years. Here's an example. There's a math class I'm struggling a bit in, and when I have a test, I end up flunking. Only, plot twist, I actually got the math problems right. What really happened is that the teacher took an irrational dislike to my handwriting and decided to flunk me. When I get the test back, however, I'm uncertain enough of the subject matter that I assume that I genuinely flunked rather than that the teacher gave me the wrong grade. Now, fast forward 6 years, or you know what, fast forward only 1 year. I've been working on my math, and I'm much better now. If I was in that math class now, I would be confident of the material and would realize what the teacher had done. However, if someone said to me, "Hey, you're doing so well now, when just last year you flunked that test," my response would be, "Thanks, I am," rather than, "Well, actually the teacher flunked me for no reason." Unless someone shoved the test under my nose and made me go over all the problems individually, I would never realize that the teacher was the one at fault rather than me. This is because, having no reason to re-evaluate what had happened, I would just go with my initial evaluation. It doesn't mean that the same thing would happen to me now or in the future, and if it did I would realize it, but because I don't really think that much about the past incident, it just never really occurs to me that my original read on the situation could be wrong.

[Mira]

I'm reasonably confident that I've said this already, but just in case, I'll say it again:

There are two arguments against this.

1) Harry blamed himself for Elaine for 10 years, even though that's definitely not his fault, and 10 years is definitely longer than 6 years. So Harry is absolutely capable of thinking something is his fault even thought it really isn't for 6 years.

2) Another reason he didn't realize that Murphy was in the wrong there was because he wasn't thinking about it in those 6 years. Here's an example. There's a math class I'm struggling a bit in, and when I have a test, I end up flunking. Only, plot twist, I actually got the math problems right. What really happened is that the teacher took an irrational dislike to my handwriting and decided to flunk me. When I get the test back, however, I'm uncertain enough of the subject matter that I assume that I genuinely flunked rather than that the teacher gave me the wrong grade. Now, fast forward 6 years, or you know what, fast forward only 1 year. I've been working on my math, and I'm much better now. If I was in that math class now, I would be confident of the material and would realize what the teacher had done. However, if someone said to me, "Hey, you're doing so well now, when just last year you flunked that test," my response would be, "Thanks, I am," rather than, "Well, actually the teacher flunked me for no reason." Unless someone shoved the test under my nose and made me go over all the problems individually, I would never realize that the teacher was the one at fault rather than me. This is because, having no reason to re-evaluate what had happened, I would just go with my initial evaluation. It doesn't mean that the same thing would happen to me now or in the future, and if it did I would realize it, but because I don't really think that much about the past incident, it just never really occurs to me that my original read on the situation could be wrong.

Except even at this stage in the game Harry usually defers to Murphy's judgement...  As to your example of your math test,  I think of the over all consequences of the teacher failing you for penmanship... If the teacher didn't note on the exam as to why you failed, what was the point of failing you for bad penmanship?   If it was just one test in many tests you had taken in the class and your over all grade wasn't in the balance, what you say makes sense.   However say it was the final that the teach failed you on for penmanship... That failure dropped your over all grade considerably, that lower grade messed up your G.P.A. as a result you missed getting a scholarship or getting into the college you desired..  If you knew you had studied, if the teacher gave you no explanation for the failure, I bet you wouldn't be so accepting of the results...  I also think you'd double check the results for any future test you were about to take.. 

Harry didn't blame Murphy,  in his mind I think, because of the resulting slaughter in the police station that she paid a heavy enough price for her mistakes..

[magnuskn]

Quite honestly, I don't think Murphy's deep catholicism was mentioned after Harry died. With her crisis of faith in everything she underwent during the time of Ghost Story and, well, Skin Game, obviously, as well as her training with the Einherjar, I wouldn't wonder if Odin has marked her as a candidate.

I mean, if God takes on atheists and Jews as his very christian themed holy knights, I don't doubt Odin can't abuse the "rules" as well. Also, presuming for a moment that Gard doesn't make it through Peace Talks, Marcone would need a new bodyguard from Monoc Securities. 

[nadia.skylark]

Except even at this stage in the game Harry usually defers to Murphy's judgement...

Sure, but by Proven Guilty (which is what I assume you mean by "at this stage in the game") Murphy is a character whose judgement can be trusted.

As to your example of your math test,  I think of the over all consequences of the teacher failing you for penmanship... If the teacher didn't note on the exam as to why you failed, what was the point of failing you for bad penmanship?

He was a bad teacher. Of course it wasn't the smart move--Murphy assaulting Harry wasn't the smart move, which is what this is supposed to be analogous to.

If it was just one test in many tests you had taken in the class and your over all grade wasn't in the balance, what you say makes sense.   However say it was the final that the teach failed you on for penmanship... That failure dropped your over all grade considerably, that lower grade messed up your G.P.A. as a result you missed getting a scholarship or getting into the college you desired..  If you knew you had studied, if the teacher gave you no explanation for the failure, I bet you wouldn't be so accepting of the results... 

Nope. If you have serious confidence problems to do with schoolwork, and you explicitly know that you have problems with the specific subject, you're fairly unlikely to go up to the teacher and demand an explanation. Remember, in this analogy I am the equivalent of Harry, who has a guilt complex (equivalent to "confidence problems to do with schoolwork") and knows that he's messed things up (from his perspective, anyway) with Murphy previously (equivalent to knowing that he's struggling with the class material).

I also think you'd double check the results for any future test you were about to take..

You keep your tests once the class you took them for is over? Huh. I don't, so I hadn't included that in my analogy. If it bothers you, just pretend that the teacher didn't hand the tests back, and you found out your grade by looking on the school's website.

[Mira]

You keep your tests once the class you took them for is over? Huh. I don't, so I hadn't included that in my analogy. If it bothers you, just pretend that the teacher didn't hand the tests back, and you found out your grade by looking on the school's website.

I would if I felt cheated... 

Nope. If you have serious confidence problems to do with schoolwork, and you explicitly know that you have problems with the specific subject, you're fairly unlikely to go up to the teacher and demand an explanation. Remember, in this analogy I am the equivalent of Harry, who has a guilt complex (equivalent to "confidence problems to do with schoolwork") and knows that he's messed things up (from his perspective, anyway) with Murphy previously (equivalent to knowing that he's struggling with the class material).

One might consider a therapist...  Still, if the teacher in a math class flunks you due to penmanship, there should be a note to the fact on you paper...  Harry has a guilt complex not because he is sloppy with his work, but perhaps maybe he is too good at it..  Thus he takes the blame when he doesn't deserve any..

[nadia.skylark]

I would if I felt cheated... 

But the point is that you didn't feel cheated at the time.

One might consider a therapist...

Yes, Harry could certainly use one.

Still, if the teacher in a math class flunks you due to penmanship, there should be a note to the fact on you paper...  Harry has a guilt complex not because he is sloppy with his work, but perhaps maybe he is too good at it..  Thus he takes the blame when he doesn't deserve any..

Okay, I think you misunderstood my analogy.

I'm not saying that:
I am bad at handwriting = Harry is bad at something

I'm saying that:
The teacher's actions (flunking me even though he knew I got the problems right, because he was in a bad mood and didn't like my handwriting) are unprofessional and wrong, and are the conduct of a bad teacher = Murphy's actions (assaulting Harry, refusing to listen to him for any reason) are unprofessional and wrong, and are the conduct of a bad cop

Is that clearer?

[Mira]

I'm saying that:
The teacher's actions (flunking me even though he knew I got the problems right, because he was in a bad mood and didn't like my handwriting) are unprofessional and wrong, and are the conduct of a bad teacher = Murphy's actions (assaulting Harry, refusing to listen to him for any reason) are unprofessional and wrong, and are the conduct of a bad cop

Is that clearer?

Clearer, but no sure if it matters unless it is part of a bigger picture..  Was your teacher just a bad teacher?  Or is what happened to you merely a one of?  Murphy's behavior towards Harry may have come from mere frustration because she was dealing with things beyond her understanding... Or is there a pattern of her smacking others around to get answers and her jumping to conclusions about evidence before she has the answers?  If the latter than she is a bad cop..

But the point is that you didn't feel cheated at the time.

That doesn't make sense unless you had no clue that your answers were right or you were okay with getting your answers dinged because of your poor writing skills..    Harry felt responsible for Kim, that was irrational, he was also in shock about how she was killed..  However he knew that he didn't commit the murder and he didn't care to be punished for it...