Who really killed Margaret McCoy Dresden

[morriswalters]

In the years since Harry was born no one became aware that Raith couldn't feed at all.  So it isn't a stretch to think he could have used as many sacrifices as he wanted.  And since we only saw one instance of the curse being cast it's hard to say if it required a sacrifice.  However Raith isn't written as an idiot, so I have a hard time thinking that he shot a gun without being certain of his target.

[Mr. Death]

In the years since Harry was born no one became aware that Raith couldn't feed at all.  So it isn't a stretch to think he could have used as many sacrifices as he wanted.

Those two things really don't reflect on each other. It's a lot easier to hide not killing people than it is to hide killing them by the hundreds.

And since we only saw one instance of the curse being cast it's hard to say if it required a sacrifice.  However Raith isn't written as an idiot, so I have a hard time thinking that he shot a gun without being certain of his target.

Agreed, we don't know it for certain, though I think Lord Raith makes reference to using one of the three as a previous sacrifice, because she had targeted Inari.

And certainly he knew who his target was; the question is whether he kept firing when it became clear he couldn't hit her.

[dspringer1]

Is everybody certain that Margaret McCoy Dresden is actually dead.    We know Dresden's dad is dead because his soul came back for a visit in Dead Beat.   But do we have any specific trustworthy evidence that she is dead.  For example, did Lea specifically SAY that she was dead.  Not gone, not missed - but dead. 

Going by the comic book rule.  If you do not see the body, then you cannot assume that the person is really dead.   Even if you see the body, there is still a chance they are not really dead.   

[nadia.skylark]

Is everybody certain that Margaret McCoy Dresden is actually dead.    We know Dresden's dad is dead because his soul came back for a visit in Dead Beat.   But do we have any specific trustworthy evidence that she is dead.  For example, did Lea specifically SAY that she was dead.  Not gone, not missed - but dead. 

Going by the comic book rule.  If you do not see the body, then you cannot assume that the person is really dead.   Even if you see the body, there is still a chance they are not really dead.

Well, she used her death curse. That would mean she's pretty dead.

[Mr. Death]

Is everybody certain that Margaret McCoy Dresden is actually dead.    We know Dresden's dad is dead because his soul came back for a visit in Dead Beat.   But do we have any specific trustworthy evidence that she is dead.  For example, did Lea specifically SAY that she was dead.  Not gone, not missed - but dead. 

Going by the comic book rule.  If you do not see the body, then you cannot assume that the person is really dead.   Even if you see the body, there is still a chance they are not really dead.

Literally every single reference anyone has ever made of her has been that she's dead. A demon from Hell lamented that when she died she went to heaven. Ebenezer McCoy stated outright that she's dead. She used her death curse. Jim said she's dead.

So, yes. She's dead. There's nothing in any of the books or Word of Jim that has ever suggested that she's still alive.

[kbrizzle]

@nadia & Mr. Death

Oh I personally believe Raith or someone allied with him is the likely killer, but I just wanted to point out that Nic could’ve done it. Perhaps a motive will make itself known in the later books.

@dspringer
I also think that Maggie is dead for the reasons listed

[Kindler]

There's nothing in any of the books or Word of Jim that has ever suggested that she's still alive.

God, imagine the fan reaction if, like, Mab pulls off a mask to reveal she's secretly been Margaret the whole time.
I mean, I don't think I'd outright abandon the books at that point, but I can't really be sure.

[Mr. Death]

That'd be right up there with the whole "Captain America is a HYDRA agent" thing.

[Kindler]

I don't read comics much anymore, but a buddy of mine does. He was so disgusted with that particular turn when it happened because it was so blatant that it would be temporary, even if it was a real thing.

[Bad Alias]

And since we only saw one instance of the curse being cast it's hard to say if it required a sacrifice.

It's strongly implied that most of the instances of the curse, described in Blood Rites, did not use a human sacrifice. Harry even talks about how a human sacrifice was likely when Emma is killed because it came in so much stronger, if I recall correctly.

The reason Margaret is killed so long after she escapes may be because Raith, or whoever, thought she had been dead like every one else had assumed.

If Nicodemus killed her so he could recruit Harry, why didn't he just come up to him as a kid or something and say "want to see this weird coin?" In that situation, he wouldn't have even needed to kill Harry's dad.

[morriswalters]

I'll go full tin hat mode here.  Set up the sequence.  If Maggie prepped Thomas, when she ran, to act as the conduit for her death curse, then it's arguable that she knew Raith could get at her and in fact she planned for it.  He might have had the ritual completed as soon as he was sure she had escaped. Knowing he would do this she went to someone who could hide her.  In Turn Coat Summer hides Morgan from the Senior Council, no mean feat.  So posit Lea as her benefactor.  With herself shielded, the curse just waited.  What was the payment?  Harry as a Starborn.  A possible weapon against the Outsiders.  The protection lasted until she produced the payment.  And at his birth the curse came home to roost.  Malcolm was collateral damage.  Taking Lea's tough love philosophy to their natural limits, she murdered Malcolm or caused him to be murdered and name dropped Harry to Justin, in a bid to temper her weapon.  Considering the smile on his face maybe Lea had Lara do Malcolm, that's pretty twisted.

[kbrizzle]

@morriswalters
It makes sense except for a few things - the part where Maggie’s protection ends at childbirth (why?) & the part where Lea gives Harry to Justin for rearing - it just seems unlike her given how much she wants to control Harry in the series. It’s plausible for a few reasons, I’d just rather it not be that.

So basically my WAG in this whole thread is that Maggie disappears/ fakes her death when she leaves Raith sr. This is why he does not look for her & she is able to not only successfully hide - she is able to find a man, get married & have a kid (because Raith wasn’t looking for her).
However Nic is aware of a lot of what she is upto, vis a vis birthing a Starborn. Being a formidable witch, Nic needs to wait until she is most vulnerable - childbirth to point his entropy curse her way. 

@Bad Alias
I’m sure he would’ve wanted to get to kid Harry if he could - part of my WAG is that Harry is whisked away to a random orphanage by people seeking to not let this happen. Unfortunately they trust Justin to track Harry...

[Con]

I mean there's the WOJ that if and when Harry finds out what the actual deal for Leansidhe being his Godmother, that it would be significant enough that Hary and Lea would duel. Can't seem to find the quote though.

Any help @Serack?

[morriswalters]

It’s plausible for a few reasons, I’d just rather it not be that.

Hard to argue with that.

[Bad Alias]

@kbrizzle: For Harry to be hidden from Nic, I'd need an explanation for why Anduriel can't find him. Either Anduriel needs to know where someone is to watch them, but that's doesn't sound likely to me, or how Harry was hidden from him would work for me.

@Con: I do recall something like that. Also that Margaret "made a very bad deal" or something to that effect.