How was Demonreach filled?

[KurtinStGeorge]

I have believed that no one has used demonreach for a while.  with the idea that the heavy hitters of the fallen not knowing what it was when they used it and shagnasty not having an issue showing up at a place for a trade where a bunch of his brothers were being held makes me believe that the last time it was used was before that ice age

I hate to put this idea out there, because time travel complications can be so annoying, but here goes. 

What if Shagnasty didn't have a problem going to Demonreach Isle because he had no clue any of his kind were imprisoned there; because, outside of the prison, they haven't been captured yet?  That will happen at a future time.  For all we know Harry will be the one that captures them; and to take this idea to its ultimate conclusion, Shagnasty could be one of the prisoners.

Whatever the case may be, I have no doubt that at some point we are going to see Harry capture and imprison a supernatural being.  Actually, I think it will happen twice.  The first time will show us the process and how difficult it is to pull off, the second time will probably occur in the BAT, and Harry will probably have to imprison multiple supernatural entities.   

[DonBugen]

Maz's got it.  Merlin's Circle is the trap; Demonreach is just the Big Twinkie that holds 'em all. 

[kbrizzle]

One of the things in the conversation between Harry, Bob & Demonreach in CD that stuck out to me was the talk about Harry becoming Warden.

Demonreach says that first there was one, now there are many; implying a link between the two. We know that Merlin built both the prison & created the White Council. Perhaps the original purpose of the initial generations of White Council was to help the Warden of Demonreach fill up the prison?

[Kindler]

One of the things in the conversation between Harry, Bob & Demonreach in CD that stuck out to me was the talk about Harry becoming Warden.

Demonreach says that first there was one, now there are many; implying a link between the two. We know that Merlin built both the prison & created the White Council. Perhaps the original purpose of the initial generations of White Council was to help the Warden of Demonreach fill up the prison?

That's kinda where my head is; the original intent behind building the White Council wasn't just to control wizards and reduce the prevalence of black magic, it was to capture and imprison the worst of the things that are out there.

[toodeep]

I would think that it might have been possible if you designed Demonreach to keep things that happened on it secret, and then did a lot of summoning and trapping.  If no one could learn (because Demonreach shut it down) that creature X was summoned there into the big beautiful circle and then imprisoned, then it would still work to summon the next nasty.  Once the secret got out it wouldn't work as well, but its possible some big guys were just too arrogant or not informed to take it seriously and still risked it.

Like Shagnasty.  I really wish someone had just told Harry to say, "take him below" and let us see how that worked in Turn Coat.

[groinkick]

One thing to consider is that the chamber itself seems to be very very far down with apparent roots that shouldn't be there.  This could mean that it's actually a place within the NeverNever much like traveling to Hades domain.  If the chamber is really somewhere in the NeverNever then a lot of the "rules" go out the window.  Time, space, power are different than in the mortal world.  The Island may just be the vault door while the vault itself is somewhere else.  Kind of like breaking into Hades vault inside Marcone's bank gave access to Hades domain within the NeverNever.  It also means that a Mantle can be at full strength.  Mab within Winter is much more powerful than if she's walking around Chicago for example.  We don't know what Mantle's of power the designer of DemonReach had.

[g33k]

IIRC, the island is at a confluence of ley-lines.

I'd bet that any summoning-circle / binding-circle tied to or using ANY of the lines can be used by the Intellectus-bonded Warden as a conduit to the prison-cells.  This extends the "reach" of capture to rather more-practical ranges.

Interestingly, if my speculation is correct... it could likely have siphoned Ivy out from the Denarian circle, if only Harry had known... and had been the Demonreach-Warden at the time!

[ClintACK]

In my Head Canon, the Wardens keep an extensive file of true names and other thaumaturgic links to unkillable monsters they've encountered. The original purpose of that file was to provide targets the next time Demonreach had a Warden. However, either they've forgotten why they keep those records or whoever keeps them (probably Peabody... *facepalm*) doesn't trust Harry enough yet.

[BrainFireBob]

My 2 cents:

Alfred can be summoned to the Warden as the Warden is part of the island.

To avoid creating a "new" dark god, the island is inherently passive- it can only react unless the Warden directs.

The island is powered by its prisoners.

The island drains its prisoners of their power over time.

It represents the 3rd path for warlocks Harry is looking for.

The Wardens actually answer to the Warden. Harry has kept it down low foolishly.

The magic is a resonant created fractal- Merlin made the conditions and the magic made itself, hence it being so fine and pervasive.

[dspringer1]

The timeline of Demonreach implies that there were Wardens well before there was a white council.   Demonreach preceded the last ice age after all and the White council is only a few thousand years old. 

Some could argue that the formation of the white council itself was (at least in part) intended to provide better support for demonreach than a single (or small group) of wardens could do.  Much like the Fey replacing the Dragons as the defenders of the outer gates, things change over time even in the supernatural world.   Perhaps the world was getting to complicated for the old warden model.    No idea - but it makes for a nice theory. 

[Kindler]

the White council is only a few thousand years old. 

Even less, I think. Didn't Merlin create the White Council from "the ashes of the Roman Empire?" We're talking 400 AD (if "ashes" refers to "significantly reduced influence") or 476 (if "ashes" refers to "the point at which the Emperor was overthrown by a 'barbarian' leader"). So figure around 500-550 AD for Merlin to have definitely formed the White Council as it is today.

[kbrizzle]

@groinkick
I really like the idea of the prison on Demonreach being in the Nevernever, however I would point out that Harry never pierced any kind of veil that separates the mortal world like he always does when he gets into the NN. I guess one could argue that the oddly geometric number & shape of the steps as well as the age of the island could make it so there is a unique entrance to the NN.

@g33k
I believe it is pointed out a few times that the island is the well from which a lot of the Ley lines begin - this is a result of the island siphoning off energy from its prisoners. (There must be some ridiculously heavy hitters down there).

@BrainFireBob
Completely agree - that’s where I’m leaning too.

@dspringer
Were the Dragons ever the guardians at the Gates? I believe there is an obscure WoJ that Dragons were in charge of stuff like moving the continental plates & such.

@Kindler
Yes I recall Harry saying that he created it from the ashes of the Roman Empire, which explains Latin as their court language. This would point to the WC being ~1500-1600 years old.

Also since Merlin created the island in 5 different times at once, wouldn’t the first Warden be in the AD era (as opposed to BC) era?  While the island is incredibly old, it doesn’t mean that there has been a Warden on it the whole time.

[Bad Alias]

Bob says Merlin created the prison in five different times at once.  My internal speculation is the number five refers to some kind of pentagram.

Hadn't noticed that.

I would think that it might have been possible if you designed Demonreach to keep things that happened on it secret, and then did a lot of summoning and trapping.

There is evidence of this in Skin Game. Anduriel cannot see what's happening on the island while there is a Warden present. Odin/Kringle isn't powerful enough to do that. Mab is, but it seems to me that her ability to "hide" from Anduriel is limited in some manner because she waits until they are a certain distance from Nicodemus to speak "openly" to Harry.

If dark gods are being trapped, I'd assume there is an active Warden. If there is an active Warden, then a member of perhaps the most powerful class of creatures in the DresdenVerse we've seen, whose specialty is spying, cannot see what's happening there. I'd say it's very likely that if a creature is summoned and trapped on Demonreach, then those acts would be unknown to almost every creature in the DresdenVerse who isn't either there or informed of the event.