Could Justin have been betrayed?

[groinkick]

At the end of the day we have a 16 year old, Harry, vs a battle hardened Warden who taught Dresden everything he knew.  I just find it unrealistic for Harry to have won.

[Kindler]

Another possibility is that Justin wasn't entirely bad. He was an "end justifies the means" kind of guy fighting against the Outsiders. He was training two Starborn to assist in that battle. The enthrallment could have been a method that Justin and his associates (including Harry's mother) had designed to test whether a person has been nemfected (and perhaps free them if they have been). Justin discovered evidence that an Outsider (HWWB) was in the area and needed to make sure that Elaine and Harry were free from influence. When Harry ran away, Justin had to assume Harry was either already compromised or would be soon.

This would mean HWWB wasn't actually sent by Justin to kill Harry. HWWB was Justin's enemy and was trying to trick Harry into killing Justin.

In sum, this theory would mean Justin was a misguided good guy, the kind that would use a darkhallow to save a little girl from Red Court vampires, the kind that Harry almost became. Of course, that would mean Justin probably isn't Cowl, unless there is some really twisty reason a misguided good guy would give a nemfected Athame to Leah.

Yeah, I've seen that brought up before, and it's possible, but I don't think it very likely. Not sure how enthralling someone would test them for Nemesis infection, and even if it was, it should've been something done way earlier; Harry and Elaine had lived with Justin for... what, six years? Infection should have been obvious by then, or they would've otherwise been tested thoroughly within a few months of adoption, at the latest. I don't see any way around Justin enthralling Elaine and Harry that doesn't involve nefarious motivation, even accounting for brutal, "do whatever it takes" ways of thinking. What purpose does bending them to his will serve?

Personally, I think Justin saw what was coming from the Outsiders, and wanted some Starborn around him before the coming Apocalypse. I think we'll find out more about him specifically during the lead-up (and probably during) the BAT.

[Cozarkian]

Infection should have been obvious by then,

Unless it was a recent infection. When Harry ran away, HWWB found him very quickly. What if Justin learned HWWB was in the area and then found out Elaine had skipped school and was acting strangely? Justin concludes her strange behavior is the result of infection (and he could be right) and conducts an enthrallment ritual to cleanse her. In GS, Harry and Molly have practice mind-wars to train in mental defense magic. It follows that Nemesis infection, which seems very similar to a form of enthrallment, might be countered by actual enthrallment magic.

When Harry gets home, Justin wants to test him too. Again, because Justin recently learned that an Outsider recently arrived in the area. When Harry runs away, that confirms (in Justin's mind) that Harry must have been recently infected. When Harry comes back, Justin tries to cleanse him. When Harry fights off the enthrallment, Justin decides to open a gate to the NN, push Elaine through where he knows someone from Summer will be there to help her, and then either died before he could escape himself or took advantage of Harry's attack to commit non-permanent suicide.

I can think of several reasons why Justin decided to let Harry win after Harry resisted. First, Harry resisting the enthrallment proved he wasn't infected. Thus, Justin knew Harry was an innocent and didn't want to kill him but lacked the energy to incapacitate him again without hurting Harry. Second, with the house burning down and the heavy use of magic, Justin knew he wouldn't be able to subdue Harry, enthrall him to cleanse him and then hide Elaine and Harry without the White Council finding out. Or third, Justin was surprised by the display of power from Harry and was concerned Harry's new power might be from a deal with Outsiders. Thus, Justin couldn't be certain he could defeat Harry and focused his efforts on saving Elaine.

How would enthralling someone test them for Nemesis? In GS, we learn that Harry has been training Molly in mind magic in unsanctioned ways to defend against mental invasion magic. The way Nemfection works seems highly related to enthrallment, so it seems likely that enthrallment magic would be the most effective way to discover or reverse Nemfection.

If the above is true, then why did Justin wait so long? Well, enthrallment magic isn't benign and likely has the potential for permanent damage. Perhaps it is worse on young people so Justin wanted to avoid it as long as possible. Maybe Justin didn't ask Elaine to stay home from school. Maybe she did that on her own. Justin found the behavior suspicious and having also seen evidence there were Outsiders in the area, had reason to believe (perhaps correctly) that Elaine had been recently infected. When Justin tried to explain, Harry ran away instead of listening. When Harry came back,  Justin thought that Harry had also been infected and tried to enthrall/cleanse Harry. When Harry resisted the enthrallment, maybe that was sufficient proof he wasn't infected. Having discovered Harry wasn't infected, Justin didn't want to kill him, but as Harry provided no opportunity to explain, the best Justin could do is push Elaine into the NN where he knew someone from Summer would be waiting to help her and then took advantage of Harry's attack to commit non-permanent suicide.

[nadia.skylark]

At the end of the day we have a 16 year old, Harry, vs a battle hardened Warden who taught Dresden everything he knew.  I just find it unrealistic for Harry to have won.

I get that. I just find it more unlikely that Justin let Harry kill him, given that if he's a good guy he should know that Harry then stands a good chance of being killed anyway when the White Council gets ahold of him, and if he's a bad guy I can't think of any reason for him to do so (rather than avoid the fight in the first place by not enthralling his apprentices).

(Unless the claim is that Kemmler took over Justin's body, in which case I can accept that the original!Justin or remnants of him interfered with Kemmler!Justin's attempt to kill Harry, allowing Harry to prevail.)

[wardenferry419]

At the end of the day we have a 16 year old, Harry, vs a battle hardened Warden who taught Dresden everything he knew.  I just find it unrealistic for Harry to have won.

No more than a youngish Harry beating a fae Queen or an older Harry finding a way to take out a Vampire pantheon.

[nadia.skylark]

I'm posting this because it's just occurred to me that I've been arguing against someone helping Harry to defeat Justin without actually stating my reason for holding that position.

My reasoning is this: I believe that certain things about that confrontation have to be true in order to support the narrative structure that has been built around them (that is, Harry's character development and the ethical questions that relate to the confrontation).

These are:
1) That Harry's mentor turned bad, was always bad, or at the least was doing something extremely bad.
2) That Harry realized this and fought him.
3) That Harry claimed victory in this fight.
4) That Harry's victory came at the cost of doing something unequivocally bad himself, namely that he broke the First Law.

I feel that if any of these points are demonstrated not to be true, then it will almost certainly come across as bad writing, and since Jim is a very good writer, he will not try to falsify any of these points.

Thus, the reason I object to someone helping Harry defeat Justin is because it would invalidate point 3--if someone helped him in the way that the poster(s) here have been implying, I feel that it would not be Harry's victory. It's not a problem that HWWB was manipulating him into being more willing to kill, or that Lea helped Harry, because in the end it was still Harry's victory. Likewise, I proposed the idea that (if Kemmler had taken over Justin, which I don't believe) original!Justin may have interfered with Kemmler!Justin, because Harry is still essential to that victory--original!Justin might be able to slow Kemmler!Justin down and make him hesitate, but he cannot stop him. I do object to theories that claim that Justin set the whole thing up and let him win, because it clearly subverts point 3, and may subvert points 1, 2, and 4, depending on what variation is proposed.

[Kindler]

Unless it was a recent infection. When Harry ran away, HWWB found him very quickly. What if Justin learned HWWB was in the area and then found out Elaine had skipped school and was acting strangely? Justin concludes her strange behavior is the result of infection (and he could be right) and conducts an enthrallment ritual to cleanse her. In GS, Harry and Molly have practice mind-wars to train in mental defense magic. It follows that Nemesis infection, which seems very similar to a form of enthrallment, might be countered by actual enthrallment magic.

When Harry gets home, Justin wants to test him too. Again, because Justin recently learned that an Outsider recently arrived in the area. When Harry runs away, that confirms (in Justin's mind) that Harry must have been recently infected. When Harry comes back, Justin tries to cleanse him. When Harry fights off the enthrallment, Justin decides to open a gate to the NN, push Elaine through where he knows someone from Summer will be there to help her, and then either died before he could escape himself or took advantage of Harry's attack to commit non-permanent suicide.

I can think of several reasons why Justin decided to let Harry win after Harry resisted. First, Harry resisting the enthrallment proved he wasn't infected. Thus, Justin knew Harry was an innocent and didn't want to kill him but lacked the energy to incapacitate him again without hurting Harry. Second, with the house burning down and the heavy use of magic, Justin knew he wouldn't be able to subdue Harry, enthrall him to cleanse him and then hide Elaine and Harry without the White Council finding out. Or third, Justin was surprised by the display of power from Harry and was concerned Harry's new power might be from a deal with Outsiders. Thus, Justin couldn't be certain he could defeat Harry and focused his efforts on saving Elaine.

How would enthralling someone test them for Nemesis? In GS, we learn that Harry has been training Molly in mind magic in unsanctioned ways to defend against mental invasion magic. The way Nemfection works seems highly related to enthrallment, so it seems likely that enthrallment magic would be the most effective way to discover or reverse Nemfection.

If the above is true, then why did Justin wait so long? Well, enthrallment magic isn't benign and likely has the potential for permanent damage. Perhaps it is worse on young people so Justin wanted to avoid it as long as possible. Maybe Justin didn't ask Elaine to stay home from school. Maybe she did that on her own. Justin found the behavior suspicious and having also seen evidence there were Outsiders in the area, had reason to believe (perhaps correctly) that Elaine had been recently infected. When Justin tried to explain, Harry ran away instead of listening. When Harry came back,  Justin thought that Harry had also been infected and tried to enthrall/cleanse Harry. When Harry resisted the enthrallment, maybe that was sufficient proof he wasn't infected. Having discovered Harry wasn't infected, Justin didn't want to kill him, but as Harry provided no opportunity to explain, the best Justin could do is push Elaine into the NN where he knew someone from Summer would be waiting to help her and then took advantage of Harry's attack to commit non-permanent suicide.

, enthrallment could potentially be a means of  The process of invading someone's min

I can see your point, but I disagree. To me, Nemesis infection seems a lot more like Assimilation than enthrallment. It's like the Borg. Or maybe a Denarian-type thing, wherein the Fallen overrides the bearer's consciousness and seizes the reins. The infection itself seems to have consciousness (at least, Harry spoke to it through Sith), so maybe it's closer to a Denarian Shadow, only significantly more juiced up; it seems to be able to rewrite the core of a person, to the point that they can break their own rules (Maeve can lie, Sith disobeys Mab's will, etc.) and outright possess them when the chips are down, so I don't see how that could be fixed by turning that person into a thrall. Aside from all of that, mortal magic slides right off Outsiders, so I doubt that a mortal enthralling another mortal would have any noticeable effect on someone who's infected—the only time we've seen mortal magic hit an Outsider is performed by Harry. And it took Mab years to cleanse Lea, and she wasn't able to help Maeve at all; it's doubtful Justin could've done much of anything.

[Mira]

   I think it is strongly hinted in Ghost Story by Lea to Harry just before his flashback I believe that
Justin was double crossed...

[groinkick]

No more than a youngish Harry beating a fae Queen or an older Harry finding a way to take out a Vampire pantheon.

Funny that you would use these two as examples when he had a great deal of help

[groinkick]

   I think it is strongly hinted in Ghost Story by Lea to Harry just before his flashback I believe that
Justin was double crossed...

I don't have the book handy, could you quote what she said please?

[wardenferry419]

Funny that you would use these two as examples when he had a great deal of help

Yep, he had help. He usually does at some point. But, there is often point where it is all Harry.

[morriswalters]

I don't have the book handy, could you quote what she said please?

I don't know about Lea, but it comes up in a discussion that Harry is having with Bob when he visits him in the skull. Harry realizes that rather than HWWB being controlled by Justin it might have been the other way, and that HWWB may have back stabbed Justin.  My Kindle ver has it as page 375.

[Maz]

Just to add to the evidence bin:

For scope of raw, magical muscle (assumed to be ultimate potential), we have Sue.  Luccio, head of the Wardens, attested to the sheer magical horsepower of what was accomplished, to be terrifying.  I don't have my books with me but I'm pretty certain she was certain that few if any other wizards could have pulled that off.  Yes, special night and whatnot but it was still apparently epic.  I believe Harry described it like lifting an engine block - nothing fancy just a tremendous amount of work/exertion.

For Harry's magical muscle/potential, we also have the opinions of tons of people that seem to hold Harry as "exceptional" - all of the necromancers thought he had tremendous potential as a student as well as evil Bob (something like "oh the master would have favored you"). Cowl.  Grevane.  etc. 

Heck, Nicodemus thinks he has tremendous potential.  Most of the Senior Council including the Gatekeeper think he's exceedingly dangerous even to them.  Is he there today?  No.  He is 40 years old or so and they are a few hundred...  But someone who can magically bench 800 lbs... even without skill... if they get lucky, can mess you up. 

On a side note, I'd totally agree that HWWB probably double-crossed Justin and that's how it happened.  But just wanted to add two bits regarding that I don't see Harry being arrogant regarding his raw power - actually the opposite.  I think he's being overly humble but recognizes at the same time that his power doesn't amount to much compared to a few hundred years of skill refinement.

[Cozarkian]

I can see your point, but I disagree. To me, Nemesis infection seems a lot more like Assimilation than enthrallment. It's like the Borg. Or maybe a Denarian-type thing, wherein the Fallen overrides the bearer's consciousness and seizes the reins. The infection itself seems to have consciousness (at least, Harry spoke to it through Sith), so maybe it's closer to a Denarian Shadow, only significantly more juiced up; it seems to be able to rewrite the core of a person, to the point that they can break their own rules (Maeve can lie, Sith disobeys Mab's will, etc.) and outright possess them when the chips are down, so I don't see how that could be fixed by turning that person into a thrall. Aside from all of that, mortal magic slides right off Outsiders, so I doubt that a mortal enthralling another mortal would have any noticeable effect on someone who's infected—the only time we've seen mortal magic hit an Outsider is performed by Harry. And it took Mab years to cleanse Lea, and she wasn't able to help Maeve at all; it's doubtful Justin could've done much of anything.

The fact that Nemesis can change an entity's mind is precisely why enthrallment, which requires changing a person's mind, would be a logical counter. And it might not specifically be enthrallment, it could be something that looks like enthrallment or something that requires enthrallment before it can be safely performed. Regardless of the specifics of the method, it makes sense that some kind of mind-magic that skirts the lines of the laws would be a solution to the mind-invasion by Nemesis. Since it requires violation of the laws, it literally can't be performed by Mab and wouldn't be discovered by the White Council. Also, Outsider resistance is a non-issue because you aren't hitting Nemesis with magic, you are using magic on the victim in a way that makes the host unsuitable.