Author Topic: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY  (Read 7594 times)

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« on: April 08, 2019, 01:16:51 PM »
JUSTIN IS ALIVE

1. As established in the WOJ there is a big difference between Dead and Gone. So just because Justin is D-E-D, doesn't mean he is out of the game. Hell, Malcolm Dresden isn't out of the game and he IS dead.

2. Secondly, if Justin wasn't just a run of the mill Warden who's initial dabbles in the Dark Arts got him in over his head and killed, then he likely had access to magic that makes him able to do lots of things that Harry and perhaps even elements of the Council would not be aware of.
    We know Justin wasn't some mere dabbler - he was a powerful Warden (to the point where most doubted some young punk wizard could have defeated him in a magical duel, more on that later) and well connected to several mysterious individuals that have ties to the Big Things going on. He knew Margaret Le Fay, Ariana, Lord Raith, Leah and was personally present at Kemmler's defeat (to the point where he actually grabbed Bob's skull, more on that later).  We know only a little of his abilities, yet we can assume he was a powerful Evocation specialist (otherwise he couldn't have been a Warden). We also know he taught Harry most of the foundation of what he knows - so he clearly has a wide range of skills. We know he could reach beyond the Outer Gates (knowledge that is so difficult and dangerous and highly guarded that barely anyone even knows what the gates are). If he broke that Law, we can make a reasonable assumption he had broken some of the others. We know he could Enthrall, and likely invade minds. So could he transform others, perform Necromancy, mess with Time? Likely he could do the first. My belief, and it seems likely, is that he understood at least some Necromancy. Harry even says in Grave Peril, it wasn't complex to Raise Sue, but just a lot of magical effort.

3. How did he know about Bob? How did he recognise him for what he was? Why didn't he destroy him? Why didn't original/evil Bob try and destroy him?
    All questions that are difficult to answer. If you are raiding a extremely powerful and dangerous Necromancer's lair, surrounded by his minions and traps with his home field advantage, are you going to notice a relatively boring skull amongst likely lots of other skulls? Probably not unless Evil Bob was running around obviously - which if he were, the Council would have seen and destroyed such a Thing. So probably it was either advising it's Master (Kemmler) or it was hidden. Either way, of all people there (including Simon), Justin found it. If Simon were Cowl, surely he would have been pretty interested in finding Evil Bob and using it for his own purposes (including a Darkhallow, ahead of schedule)?
    If Justin was a regular Warden, and he noticed Bob he would have destroyed him. If he was already corrupted, he might have made a deal for more power. But that doesn't explain how he found it when no one did. Also clearly Evil Bob is so powerful in his own right, he can kill regular Wizards easily. In fact, he was only really behaving for his holder (similar to a Djinn) or bullied by the Necromancers. Evil Bob normally would have just killed an enemy like a Warden, so only if Kemmler was about to be out of the picture might he jump ship, but even then it would be as a Master to a new apprentice. Only a powerful and experienced Wizard, especially with powers directly over spirits, could subdue him into an advisory capacity.

4. How did Dresden defeat DuMorne in a wizard's duel, a term first mentioned in Grave Peril, when Anastasia rightly points out Dresden has little experience in such things (which by this point is decades after his fight with Justin) yet he is far more experienced by now than when they first fought (especially more so than the new Warden recruits) and Justin was a highly experienced Dark Wizard duelist?
    Well this is a tricky one. If Dresden has 'super' wizard powers from being a Star Born, then perhaps this was how. However we have only really seen that against Outsiders. Justin clearly taught Harry the idea that you don't just rely on magic, you use the environment, regular mundane fighting weapons, and anything else you can to defeat an enemy. So considering that, the fact they had a magic duel is quite unusual. In fact, Harry almost never relies on magic alone. Now we know almost nothing about that fight (for obvious reasons) and so we are in the murky area of guesswork. However I think we can imagine that Harry after running away and defeating He Who Walks Behind, would have tried to get the jump on Justin. Especially after realising that Justin likely thought he was dead. Also, he has just made his deal with Leah for the power to defeat Justin. Which Harry has always assumed was a Dumbo's feather situation since then. Likely Leah gave him a few strategies to help him defeat Justin too.
    But Justin despite all this, is a very skilled warrior. He obviously would have had wards on his property, which would have alerted him to Harry's return. He probably had ones that even stop enemies from entering uninvited. Say Dresden knew how to disable the wards, Justin still would have eventually realised Harry had survived. He then has his magic shield, and many practiced evocations and possibly even magical devices (not to mention his Warden blade) at his disposal. So unless Harry completely overwhelmed him in that first vital few moments, it is unlikely that he would have had much trouble duelling with his own student. He would know Dresden’s weaknesses, and considering how far in advance Dresden normally prepares (which he would have learned from Justin) he was probably prepared for such a situation. La Fortier even mentions how many were never convinced he actually did defeat Justin in a straight duel, but perhaps accidently killed him with the fire (or as some above have suggested, he was implying Justin might not even actually BE dead).
   Which begs the question, if HWWBH was actually running the show and was trying to convince Harry to use magic for violence, what was Justin’s intention? Consider for a moment that Justin was not surprised but in fact prepared for his final duel. Perhaps he wanted to teach one last lesson. Perhaps he wanted to get Dresden to kill him – so he would be comfortable with breaking the Laws of magic when he felt it was necessary. 

5. DuMorne in French is roughly "of the Mountains". The French connection between Margaret, Justin, Grails, Arthurian references etc cannot be denied. It is important because it establishes a link between several highly important series elements. Always look for the literary devices when constructing theories; they hold the key. E.g. Vader means Father, and a common narrative structure is the Hero’s Journey. Not to mention the Son killing Father trope is as old as any story you might care to name. Interesting he has Morgana Le Fay’s athame, of all things. White Council started by Merlin, who also helped form the knights of the round table – including eventually Lancelot Dulac (of the Lake).

6. Finally, when and how did Dumorne get corrupted to evil? Was it Nemesis or Dark Magic or was he always pretty bad? Never been properly examined in either the text or in theories (afaik). There are several possibilities.
   One, he was a good old Warden and got Nemfected. Possible, but as we know so little about how Nemesis works we can’t really say either way. If that were the case it could explain away a lot of his behaviour and probably why he has been discarded after use and how he could reach beyond the Outer Gates.
   Two, he got corrupted by using too much Dark Magic. Now assuming that is different to Nemesis infection (which at this point it seems to be, if they were the same thing it wouldn’t affect immortals the way it does or the Council would be more aware of it, but they don’t seem to be), we can assume that he started to go mad with power. However, many wizards go Dark and don’t seem to go raising Outsiders. In fact, it seems like it takes a hell of a lot of set up to get that knowledge, which your average power mad warlock doesn’t seem to be involved with. Even if Justin did go that bit extra, how did he get the knowledge in the first place? Much easier to raise regular demons.
   Three, he was bad for a LONG time. Consider that Justin wasn’t always Justin. Perhaps he was a body swapping Necromancer etc. Maybe he was just some Wizard who got pulled into the wrong crowd early on. Maybe he even went looking for knowledge to defeat evil and got convinced by a charismatic/persuasive person to join the dark side. Kemmler is pretty persuasive and charismatic (see A Fistful of Warlocks). He also had several acolytes with him back then in the Wild West (one was Grevane). Perhaps one was Corpsetaker. One seems to resemble Cowl. But even if he isn’t that old, Kemmler is around until 30 October, 1961. Harry is roughly Jim’s age (JB’s bday is 26 October, 1971). So let’s say around 49. Meaning let’s say Justin is looking 40s when he adopts Harry he is probably 60s (Wizard aging remember). So when Harry is 16 (six years after being adopted in ‘81) the year is roughly 1987. Justin is in his 70s perhaps, still looking flash, highly experienced Warden and dangerous as anything. He would have been relatively young for a Warden when Kemmler’s assault took place (probably 50s), remember Harry is considered by the White Council for the first part of the series to be incredibly young and inexperienced (and they are sort of right). So let’s say Justin turns bad sometime between 30 and 50 years old, for whatever reason. He meets Kemmler and enters into an apprenticeship with him, but realises he is mad. Decides he can do it better. Perhaps, and even likely, betrays him to the Wardens. Good cover for his own plans. Helps kill off his old mentor, secures a few choice possession (such as a certain Spirit of Intellect) and claims stellar points for helping bring down Kemmler finally. Good Guy Justin. Starts enacting his own dark plans, manages to acquire not one but two Star Born, and is preparing to execute his strategy when plans change.

If this is the case then he is Cowl. This makes the most sense.  So let’s examine the possibility and discuss evidence of Justin = Cowl.

COWL = JUSTIN

       We know Cowl, for whatever reason, seems to be able to cheat death. He isn’t worried about Death Curses. He survived the backlash of the Darkhallow (which should have obliterated him). If Cowl is Justin, it makes sense that he survived a simple fire (even if his chosen meat suit died). He could have jumped into another body (prepared for such events), he might even have some yet unknown ability, technique or deal that allows him to come back from death. Cowl works with Outsiders – that much is clear (see Nemesis infecting Leah). Justin works with Outsiders. Cowl knew about Bob, something none of the other Necromancers seemed to be aware existed until Cowl revealed it. How would he know that Bob had survived AND Harry had him? Well unless he received some magical/divine revelation, he couldn’t have. Only Justin and Elaine knew about Bob’s survival, and the Harry would have taken him. Unless we get in the Time Travellers – which we won’t here. That is a whole can of worms that until we know more about Time Travel we cannot really discuss with any real meaning.
Cowl is highly, highly proficient in magic. Described as having a stronger heavy punch than Ebenezar (admittedly, we haven’t seen Ebenezar unleashed yet) and having quick and effective wards, skilled at illusion (including a voice-altering spell), able to cause massive electronic and machine failure (and several other subtler disruption spell), mental assaults, and incredibly skilled at opening Ways (something so complicated only Wizards with years of formal instruction can do – it is clear even Wizard-level talents like Hannah Ascher cannot do this without the appropriate training). Cowl also is mixed up with a lot of the people Justin was (the Raiths, the White Council, Ariana, obviously Kemmler and possibly Margaret Le Fay). On Ariana, though this is never seen we can infer that she or Ortega connected him to Bianca. Arianas play for power mirrored a trend of the old order being washed away for a new one, and clearly there is a link between the Red Court nobility and the Necromancers (likely through Cowl). How else would a plan to wipe the White Council out have been formed – do we really think they just thought “maybe we’ll just call up the local Necromancer and get him to be a God and take out the Senior Council”? No, this was a plan long in the making. Cowl also has interesting links to the Formor – a group that seems to have replaced the Red Court as the face of organisational antagonist. We can guess at this from the scent of mildew from his lair on his side of the Way, and also from Corpsetaker’s links to the Formor. Perhaps even from his voice, which sounded like he was talking underwater.
         
         Cowl uses a gun. That right there is plain weird. Almost NO wizard and supernatural types use guns. Something Justin taught Harry was to use any weapons, not just rely on magic. Cowl also has big old scars on his arms (see Grave Peril climax). Where might he have got this? One idea is a pretty nasty house fire.  Interestingly, Darth Vader is so scarred and burnt he looks nothing like Anakin and his voice changes. Huh. All the Necromancers are skilled in weapons (Swords, Chains/Kusari etc). Justin would have been skilled too, the skill transfer over. But Cowl doesn’t have a sword? Well Justin hardly could carry his old Warden sword, that would be a big neon sign saying “Here I am!”. But Cowl might carry one concealed. Cowl knows about Halloween being the time Immortals become unlocked and Mortal. That is such a big secret right there, even the other Necromancers didn’t know. Except likely Kemmler. How would Cowl know unless he took is from Kemmler. He might have learned it from Outsiders, but this information is so highly guarded and dangerous to have it puts you on just about every immortal’s radar. Interestingly, both Cowl and Nicodemus are not sure if they are mad. But they are able to examine it. This doesn’t fit with irrational power-hungry schitzo sorcerers. This is deeper, and far more scary - Nemesis or otherwise.

       Kumori is a strong indicator that Cowl is Justin. If Justin did survive, with or without Elaine’s help, why did he not come after her? She wasn’t in WC custody. Maybe she went to the Summer Court of her own will, maybe not. Elaine uses Egyptian and Japanese words for magic. Kumori is a Japanese name, and while we never hear her language for magic, that would align. Kumori is odd too. Deadly, yet compassionate and idealistic. Truly wants to end death. We know NOTHING of what Elaine’s life was before Justin. Maybe she really wants her family back. Elaine is also been weirdly involved in some big events, not totally as innocently coincidental as it appears (Summer Knight, White Night anyone?) Not to mention, she is almost Harry’s height, and a big painful distraction. Perfect for a really mean sucker punch. Yet a complicated one, she does seem to genuinely love Harry. Kumori is tall enough to hold a 6’9” Dreden’s hair back and put a knife to his throat. Only quite a tall lady could do that. Kumori also find Dresden humorous and frustrating, like an old lover.

        Finally, it makes narrative sense. If Cowl is some other character, only a few are going to impact Dresden as much as the return of Justin. An old enemy, long thought dead comes back more powerful than ever, and the hero realises how long this has been in the making and how unprepared he is. If it were say, Simon then some character mentioned only in one or two books (who Dresden has never met) is revealed as the villain it becomes a bit anti-climactic. A missed opportunity. A common (because it works) trope is the return of the old teacher. Especially an old enemy. Harry would be scared, angry and devastated that Cowl is Justin (far more than if someone else) and not only that, has Elaine onside. And is behind so much stuff that has been awful in his life. That would be much worse than some random old guy who hasn’t really made much of an impact. Vader was always much more scary and upsetting to Luke initially because he was the former Jedi Knight and Father. If he had been some member of the Jedi Council, would it have had the same impact? No bloody way.

ARGUMENTS AGAINST COWL = JUSTIN.

1.   Justin is Dead. D-E-D Dead.
     a. Well as I stated earlier, big difference between Dead and Gone. That is cannon people.  Jim could say he never lied, just that we assumed that he meant Justin was no longer a part of everything. When Necromancy is involved, the line between life and death becomes very, very squishy. We know that you can body swap. We know you can even die and then re-enter a host from beyond the grave (see Ghost Story). Not to mention those that continue to work from beyond the grave, in purgatory or otherwise. He even could have hitched a ride in Elaine, until he found a more suitable host. Hell, he might even just have abandoned the body for a bit then come back in when buried.
    b. He could have faked it (pre-ready corpse etc.) and used his considerable powers to open a Way (whether he was Cowl or not, this is possible).   
    c. No Death Curse. Harry is always going on about why it is a bad idea to kill a Wizard who sees it coming for more than a split second. They can tag you back, a final F U. Justin was no slouch, and his Death Curse would have been quite strong. Harry was likely exhausted, how would he defend against a Death Curse? Justin surely would have been mad enough to do it. And if he died in the fire, as is implied, he still would have been able to do his Death Curse. He wasn’t mad like Grevane, who truly believed that death didn’t apply to him.
   d. Anakin Skywalker was dead. Darth Vader wasn’t. Same person, just different legally. Anakin died when Vader was born in Palpatine’s office after the murder of Mace Windu. One might say that just because Justin is dead, doesn’t mean that Cowl is. Like a parody of Vadderung, two people same body. Oh look Vader I mean Vadderung. Weird similarities there. Why call Odin Vadderung? Surely Jim wouldn’t have more than one hint…

2. But Simon is Cowl.
    a.   Simon is dead. But you said-no! All the reasons above do not apply. Simon’s body was recovered, and the WC would have been A LOT more concerned should the Ramps have taken his body. Think of how worried they were when a Lieutenant Warden was taken – no magnify that. A completely terrifying threat. Simon was a powerhouse. The WC would have examined his body thoroughly.
   b.   Simon was apparently overwhelmed unexpectedly. Even though he knew Vampire lore best, even though he had an impregnable fortress, they snuck through. The main theory is only someone who knew his wards could have got in. Justin was his apprentice – and he sure as hell didn’t teach Harry what those wards were.
   c.   He released a Death Curse. And while they can be faked, we know that it is unlikely that he did in particular. His Death Curse was mighty, and even if he could fake it there would be signs of such a thing. There is a well-known WOJ on this.
  d.   It is pretty common that the strategy when facing a powerful foe is neutralise their advantages. Taking out their most knowledgeable Wizard on Vampires, plus one of their most powerful warriors (along with his feared Brute Squad) seems like a pretty good idea.

3.  Cowl seems like he doesn’t recognise Dresden.
    a.   Well, if he is hiding his identity he is hardly going to give hints about who he really is.
    b. Justin also hasn’t seen Harry fight probably in since their “duel”. I think he would be curious to see how powerful Harry was. And like an old teacher, disappointed when their high expectations aren’t met. Also like Justin, Cowl switches between rage and calm easily, like a psychopath or sociopath.
    c.   And Justin wouldn’t know this Dresden. He only knows kid Dresden. So in a way, he doesn’t really recognise him.
    d. Would Cowl really want to kill Dresden? Who says he wasn't trying anyway and Dresden did outmaneuver him? Not to mention, if Cowl has further plans for Dresden, which is again highly possible, why would he kill that asset? Justin is the pragmatic, cold type. He isn't going to care that Dresden burnt him and his house. He might be mad about ruining his plans (assuming that wasn't what he wanted in the first place), but he works in a cold and logical way. 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 05:47:48 AM by Yuillegan »
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2019, 10:01:26 PM »
Bob is bound to the skull and bound to obey the person in possession.  As was evil Bob.  And to act Bob has to leave the skull.  He can however speak at will unless bidden not to by the person who posses him.  So he could have spoken to Justin and caught his attention.  At which point in time Justin may have thought that the skull was too valuable to destroy.  We can infer that Justin would have been cautious as to the use, since it had been the property of Kimmler. At some point in time Bob suppressed evil Bob.  Jim is a little fuzzy on that.  It could be the personality of the skull always reflects his owner.  And the previous possessor is a second personality that has to be implicitly invoked.  One question you might ask is how Bob survived the fire.

In terms of how Justin died it is explicitly stated that it was by magic.  Otherwise Harry wouldn't have gone on trial.  Harry would have had no access to other weapons nor the money to buy them,  considering that he was committing a strong arm robbery because of his poverty.  The easiest suggestion for how Harry killed him would be to posit luck and surprise.  The Council, or some members, asked the same question.

You seem to have given this some thought.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2019, 07:21:59 AM »
Morris,

I think that is a plausible alternative to how Justin came to posses the Spirit of Intellect. However, I think inferring Justin was cautious to use Bob relies on information we don't actually have - namely why Justin took the Spirit and why it didn't kill him. Remember, Evil Bob nearly killed Harry just by giving Harry power he couldn't deal with. We don't know when the suppression of Evil Bob took place, but we can reasonably guess it was while Justin had him. Mostly I base this on the idea that because Bob is mostly the same Bob with Butters because Butters saw him as he was while Harry owned him, Harry likely saw a less "Evil" Bob when he was introduced to the Spirit otherwise Bob wouldn't have been who he was to Harry. Why else would Harry have rescued him from the ruins of Justin's house? The Harry we know rescues good people and friends.

An excellent point is how Bob survived the fire, I can only imagine that as the place was being destroyed by Harry's spell, he went to retrieve Bob. And at this point must have assumed Justin was out for the count.

I can see how you got to that thought, my bad. I wasn't trying to imply that Harry killed Justin with mundane methods rather than magical ones. I was trying to make the point that I don't think he would have succeeded at killing Justin with magical means generally, and so something is unusual and doesn't add up about the duel. The trial is a strong indicator that both A) someone actually died, and B) that is was Harry's magic that was responsible. Which is why I think most likely Harry DID kill Justin, but Justin came back (somehow). The council obviously have magical forensics, JB has discussed this a few times, so I am sure they could work out whether someone had actually been killed. It would be harsh even for the White Council to execute someone on the possibility they might have murdered someone. Did the Council ask this question? When was that I don't recall?

Thank you, I have been mulling this over for some time and I think I even made a stab at writing it down once. But the most recent discussion on Justin's survival energized me a lot so I ended up finally putting it all down.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Cozarkian

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1981
    • View Profile
Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2019, 03:19:17 PM »
I can see how you got to that thought, my bad. I wasn't trying to imply that Harry killed Justin with mundane methods rather than magical ones. I was trying to make the point that I don't think he would have succeeded at killing Justin with magical means generally, and so something is unusual and doesn't add up about the duel.

Simple. Justin wanted to die. Prior to his death, Justin was in the process of training two potential starborn. One, Elaine, had already been successfully enthralled. The other, Harry, had proved to be too troublesome to be worth the additional effort as Justin only really needed one potential starborn, so Elaine was sufficient. The next phase in Justin's long-term plan required him to fake his death so he could disappear from the public eye. Since Justin knows how to actually come back from the dead, Harry's attack provided a convenient cover-story.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2019, 01:07:04 AM »
Cozarkian - pretty much my thoughts exactly. It makes the most sense based on the available knowledge we have. Though I might add, I do wonder if Justin gave up on Harry as much as we thought. I wonder if the molding of Harry is still on-going, especially the way Leah talks about it. But as you say, he already has one starborn.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline Cozarkian

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 1981
    • View Profile
Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2019, 05:58:40 PM »
Cozarkian - pretty much my thoughts exactly. It makes the most sense based on the available knowledge we have. Though I might add, I do wonder if Justin gave up on Harry as much as we thought. I wonder if the molding of Harry is still on-going, especially the way Leah talks about it. But as you say, he already has one starborn.

True, Harry might still be viewed as a bonus worth getting if you can, but also expendable if it gets in your way.

Offline Avernite

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 731
    • View Profile
Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2019, 06:06:57 AM »
JUSTIN IS ALIVE

5. DuMorne in French is roughly "of the Mountains". The French connection between Margaret, Justin, Grails, Arthurian references etc cannot be denied. It is important because it establishes a link between several highly important series elements. Always look for the literary devices when constructing theories; they hold the key. E.g. Vader means Father, and a common narrative structure is the Hero’s Journey. Not to mention the Son killing Father trope is as old as any story you might care to name. Interesting he has Morgana Le Fay’s athame, of all things. White Council started by Merlin, who also helped form the knights of the round table – including eventually Lancelot Dulac (of the Lake).

Minor quibble for the total theory, but Morne has an actual meaning: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/morne

It is not mountain, but mourning/dreary/dismal. So Justin is basically 'of the grieving' or 'of the dreaded place' which fits Harry's mindset about Justin in the first books just fine, without dragging in anything Arthurian.

Offline kbrizzle

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 381
    • View Profile
Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2019, 11:55:44 AM »
While I personally lean more towards Cowl is Simon, it has bothered me that in the “duel” fought between Harry & Justin, no death curse was used.

If Justin has indeed perished in the duel as Harry remembers, why didn’t he use his death curse? Surely he was not as loony as Grevane...

Offline Avernite

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 731
    • View Profile
Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2019, 05:11:09 PM »
While I personally lean more towards Cowl is Simon, it has bothered me that in the “duel” fought between Harry & Justin, no death curse was used.

If Justin has indeed perished in the duel as Harry remembers, why didn’t he use his death curse? Surely he was not as loony as Grevane...
Maybe he was loony like Maggie le Fay, and worked something more subtle than 'explode Harry's head'?

Offline morriswalters

  • Posty McPostington
  • ***
  • Posts: 2547
    • View Profile
Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2019, 09:25:04 PM »
Or, more simply, maybe being burned alive disrupted his concentration. 

Offline Sydna

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 774
    • View Profile
Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2019, 12:35:52 AM »
I really hope not, it would ruin the entire series for me.
Not by fire but by ice.

Offline kbrizzle

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 381
    • View Profile
Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2019, 04:47:07 AM »
@Avernite
That’s what my thought process was too, but I can’t figure out what the effect of his death curse would have been? Perhaps something to Elaine?

@morriswalters
Sure, being burned can be... distracting, but remember that Justin is former warden & therefore an experienced combat wizard. I find it hard to believe that he hadn’t prepared it in the early stages of the duel, no matter how much he underestimated Harry.

Here’s another reason why I think Simon makes a better fit for Cowl. Justin had Bob for at least 15-20 years. If he is Cowl, why didn’t he perform the Darkhallow decades ago? Where as if Simon is Cowl, it makes more sense that he would try & do so after his “death”, when he is more free to pursue his nefarious agenda.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 04:51:27 AM by kbrizzle »

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2019, 12:05:17 PM »
Morriswalters, even if he were on fire he could have thrown a death curse. Harry has made it clear that it is extremely unwise to kill a wizard unless you do it so quickly and effectively that they cannot formulate a spell OR they are so disconnected from reality to believe that death doesn't hold for them (Grevane). Even if Justin was burning (the man who first taught Harry how to block pain, mind you) I think he could still have pulled off a death curse through sheer will.

As for Simon - apart from the fact that he was a far more powerful and experienced combat Wizard than Harry, and the fact his specialty was Earth magic (and a bunch of other reasons) - it just makes more sense. There are more arguments for Justin, than Simon. As for the Darkhallow, remember that in Dead Beat Cowl makes it clear he is only doing it to stop the other Necromancers, that he believes Kemmler was a madman and that he and the other Heirs of Kemmler have been searching for Kemmler's books for sometime now. I also believe, even if Cowl is Justin and had Bob all that time, he wasn't yet mad enough to become a dark god let alone deal with Evil Bob. Not only that, as I said earlier there were still many pieces to the puzzle for that Ascension that hadn't been found until Dead Beat (not just the Word of Kemmler).

Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.

Offline kbrizzle

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 381
    • View Profile
Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2019, 01:05:30 PM »
@Yuillegan

My point was that Cowl knew how to do the Darkhallow, & generally seemed more put together & better prepared to carry out the Ritual than the other 2 Kemmlerites. The point of Cowl performing the ritual was so that he would become an immortal - i think Harry says that whoever gets that power could overwhelm the Council defenses & even take Mab.

While Cowl’s demeanor seemed to be... different from the 2 Kemmlerites & he expressed disgust at being called a Kemmlerite; this would be fitting for someone like Simon who was an advanced practitioner of necromancy on his own (vampire magic seen have necromantic undertones, especially Red & Black Court). Justin I believe would owe too much to Kemmler (from Bob to learning necromancy in general) to be disgusted by the name calling.

Offline Yuillegan

  • White Council
  • Posty McPostington
  • *****
  • Posts: 1384
  • Forum Moderator
    • View Profile
Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2019, 12:11:27 AM »
@Kbrizzle,

A good argument definitely, and one I had let pass perhaps too easily. I will certainly agree it is possible that Simon is Cowl - the fact is JB could write however he wishes, and he could change his mind from his plan or invent a new character. Simon for me is a close second for Cowl, as you rightly point out there are inconsistencies with his mannerisms and language that would be odd for Justin. But doesn't rule him out mind you either. We don't know why Cowl despises Kemmler so and we don't know what the relationship between them was, we don't know how he came to learn Necromancy or how he is so much more dangerous than the other two, how Cowl is so much more involved with the bad guys behind the scenes, and we don't know how he knew about Bob (that alone says a lot about who he is).

I would love someone to point me in the direction of a good Simon WAG, if anyone knows where it is. I certainly think TT Harry is the least likely btw. I do hope we find out soon though who he is...or at least get a few more strong hints. I do think we need a few reveals at this stage of the series.

You are quite correct about the effect of the Darkhallow, though it was about being more than a mere immortal but about being a God. Harry keeps referring to whoever gets the Darkhallow as a junior-league god (without a frame of reference for what a major-league god is...TWG? Zeus? Mab even says how whoever holds the power will gain more power than in the history of the human race - which puts them above any mortal who became an immortal/monster/god which is fair amount of power right there.)

Also my theory about Cowl's motives for becoming a immortal Necromantic god (see: Nagash) is less about ruling a world of the undead (although perhaps becoming this new dark god would corrupt him...) but more about make all mortals into immortals, which I imagine means they would lose their souls/free will eventually. This would aid the aims of the Outsiders and the Old Ones. After a few descriptions of Necromancy, especially Capiocorpus', I believe that also reinforces the argument the Necromancy is a power from Outside, where as magic comes from Inside. Which might explain all the odd connections betweent the Necromancers and Outsiders.
Hi, I'm a moderator. We're here to help. Please remain calm. Don't go outdoors.