Curious passage in Summer Knight. Justin evidence?

[groinkick]

In Summer Knight when Eb, Martha, Listen's to Wind, and Harry were first meeting up, there was discussion about the attack on Archangel. 

"Let them in?" Ebenezar breathed.  "Treachery?  But even if it was true, it would have to be someone who knew his defenses inside and out."
Martha glanced at me, then back to Ebenezar.  Something passed between them in that look but I couldn't tell what.
"No," Ebenezar said.  "That's insane."
"Master to student.  You know what the Wardens will say."

Ok so what I'm gathering from this conversation is that Martha is suggesting Harry provided the information on the defenses.  That Justin, an apprentice of Simon taught Harry, his apprentice, and Harry supplied it to the Red Court.

Either that or she's suggesting that Justin is alive which is why Eb said it was insane to suggest. 

Either way, Justin is the key here.  He was an apprentice of Simon, and Martha suspecting Harry means he may not have had any more apprentices that could be suspects.  Justin is believed dead, leaving only Harry.  However if Justin were not dead.....  He'd know the defenses of Archangel as Martha pointed out "master to apprentice"

[Yuillegan]

I agree. I have used this passage to support my theory that Justin is not dead, and further is in fact Cowl. I am sure I am not the only one. For more reasons than I care to name right now, it is very likely Justin is not gone. The books have put some emphasis on the distinction about being dead and being gone.

I may rewrite that theory when I am a tad less busy but yes I think Justin will return to the stage, one way or another.

[LordDragonFire]

I agree. I have used this passage to support my theory that Justin is not dead, and further is in fact Cowl. I am sure I am not the only one. For more reasons than I care to name right now, it is very likely Justin is not gone. The books have put some emphasis on the distinction about being dead and being gone.

I may rewrite that theory when I am a tad less busy but yes I think Justin will return to the stage, one way or another.

If Justin was Cowl, wouldn't Cowl have been far more willing to kill or otherwise put Harry down in DB?

Harry did burn his house down and cost him Bob and this thralls.

[Mr. Death]

In Summer Knight when Eb, Martha, Listen's to Wind, and Harry were first meeting up, there was discussion about the attack on Archangel. 

"Let them in?" Ebenezar breathed.  "Treachery?  But even if it was true, it would have to be someone who knew his defenses inside and out."
Martha glanced at me, then back to Ebenezar.  Something passed between them in that look but I couldn't tell what.
"No," Ebenezar said.  "That's insane."
"Master to student.  You know what the Wardens will say."

Ok so what I'm gathering from this conversation is that Martha is suggesting Harry provided the information on the defenses.  That Justin, an apprentice of Simon taught Harry, his apprentice, and Harry supplied it to the Red Court.

Either that or she's suggesting that Justin is alive which is why Eb said it was insane to suggest. 

Either way, Justin is the key here.  He was an apprentice of Simon, and Martha suspecting Harry means he may not have had any more apprentices that could be suspects.  Justin is believed dead, leaving only Harry.  However if Justin were not dead.....  He'd know the defenses of Archangel as Martha pointed out "master to apprentice"

Yeah, that's basically exactly what LaFortier suggests in the meeting. It's part of the reason people suspect Simon is Cowl.

[Cozarkian]

If Justin was Cowl, wouldn't Cowl have been far more willing to kill or otherwise put Harry down in DB?

Harry did burn his house down and cost him Bob and this thralls.

Not if you take a coldly practical approach toward things. Justin wouldn't blame Harry for defending himself because Justin would do the same in Harry's shoes. As long as Harry isn't a threat to his plans, Harry doesn't need to be eliminated. It also remains possible that Harry will someday in the future come around to Justin's way of thinking and join his side, so again, unless Harry poses a threat (or too much of an inconvenience), there is no reason to eliminate him.

The other big Justin evidence is Elaine surviving. The enthrallment spell on Elaine wouldn't break until after Justin dies. How does a half-trained wizard come out of enthrallment, survive a fire that killed her master, avoid the White Council when she doesn't even know they exist (Harry learned about it from Bob) and find her way to Faerie? It seems likely Justin escaped the fire by opening a way to the NeverNever and taking Elaine with him. He then used the fire as an opportunity to fake his death. He took Elaine to the Summer Court and basically sold her to Summer in exchange for protection for her and assistance in hiding the fact he survived from the Council.

[Mr. Death]

The enthrallment spell on Elaine wouldn't break until after Justin dies.

What are you basing this on? To my knowledge, this is just plain not something the series has established.

[Cozarkian]

What are you basing this on? To my knowledge, this is just plain not something the series has established.

Admittedly, that was just an assumption based on my general understanding of how magic has worked in the books. Are you suggesting it would break before he dies? Or that Justin's death wouldn't be sufficient to break the spell? I suppose those are possible, but they seem less likely to me to be the way enthrallment would work in the DV.

[Mr. Death]

Admittedly, that was just an assumption based on my general understanding of how magic has worked in the books. Are you suggesting it would break before he dies? Or that Justin's death wouldn't be sufficient to break the spell? I suppose those are possible, but they seem less likely to me to be the way enthrallment would work in the DV.

I just don't think Justin's life and the enthrallment are linked.

The only example we have that I can think of where an "My death ends the spell" effect is in play (the curse on Papa Raith), has been something that's specifically noted as clever and unusual, so I don't think it's the norm.

So, yes, I think Elaine could have escaped the enthrallment if she was strong enough; on the other side of it, she might have needed counseling and some kind of help to escape its lingering effects (like how Peabody's victims needed work done on them, even though he's dead).

[Cozarkian]

The only example we have that I can think of where an "My death ends the spell" effect is in play (the curse on Papa Raith), has been something that's specifically noted as clever and unusual, so I don't think it's the norm.

That was noted as clever and unusual precisely because Margaret Le Fey got around the restriction that the curse should not have lasted past her death.

Typically death curses are one-shots, likely because enchantments can't normally survive the caster's death (or sunrise/sunset). Cassius' death-curse is arguably a counter-example, but I still consider that a one-shot. It only takes effect once - at Harry's death. Cassius wasn't able to curse Harry to "live alone," because that would be an ongoing effect that would need to be sustained.

Honestly, the RPG probably has the answer to this question. 

[Mr. Death]

Even besides that, the idea that it was or could have been linked to Harry and Thomas's lives was unusual, such that even though Lord Raith knew that it was an ongoing effect, he didn't know it was linked to either of them until they said so in front of him.

And if I remember correctly, Harry has to ask whether linking a spell to someone's life is possible, so again, it does not seem to be an expected norm.

The way I think it works is, enthrallment isn't an effect stemming continuously from the caster -- it's an effect you place on the person being enthralled. One that, effectively, rewrites or changes something in their mind to make them obey you.

So, to my thinking, it's not, "While under the effects of this ongoing spell, you will obey me," but "I'm altering your brain so that you will obey me."

[nadia.skylark]

That was noted as clever and unusual precisely because Margaret Le Fey got around the restriction that the curse should not have lasted past her death.

Typically death curses are one-shots, likely because enchantments can't normally survive the caster's death (or sunrise/sunset). Cassius' death-curse is arguably a counter-example, but I still consider that a one-shot. It only takes effect once - at Harry's death. Cassius wasn't able to curse Harry to "live alone," because that would be an ongoing effect that would need to be sustained.

As I remember it, it was noted as unusual because it was a sustained effect at all, rather than because it survived her death. It's mentioned in one of the short stories that successive sunrises wear down spells, so that they have to be periodically renewed.

Honestly, the RPG probably has the answer to this question.

No. Well, sort of. An enthrallment spell, according to the RPG, can work in one of two ways. The first way is that it inflicts consequences, which fade in a certain amount of time after something has been done to start the healing process. The other way is to put enough power into the spell to take somebody out (fill up all their stress, and frequently all their consequences) which allows you to rewrite one or more of their aspects (which define essential aspects of one's character). You can change your aspects, but you need a good in-universe reason to do so. For the first type, killing the caster might be considered a reason to justify beginning to recover from consequences, but it's not mentioned explicitly in the RAW, so it would depend on what individual groups decide. For the second type, killing the caster probably wouldn't be enough to justify changing the aspect, or if it was the aspect would probably be changed to something equally problematic relating to the enthrallment...but it's not explicitly mentioned in the RAW, so it would depend on what individual groups decide.

The RPG likes leaving things up in the air.

The way I think it works is, enthrallment isn't an effect stemming continuously from the caster -- it's an effect you place on the person being enthralled. One that, effectively, rewrites or changes something in their mind to make them obey you.

So, to my thinking, it's not, "While under the effects of this ongoing spell, you will obey me," but "I'm altering your brain so that you will obey me."

This makes a lot of sense.

[morriswalters]

"I got out of the house before you and Justin were finished," she said finally. "His spells had begun to unravel, and I was struggling against them. Confused, terrified. I must have run. I don't even remember doing it."

Enthrallment doesn't paralyze you, it appears to make you compliant.  Justin would have been busy dealing with Harry and lacking instruction to the contrary Elaine might have run from the fire.  A basic fire kills, panic, run away, type of a thing. 

Jim has been fairly clear on what happens to someone being controlled against their will.  They fight it on an unconscious level. There are multiple examples in the books.  This assuming that enthrallment is a form of mind magic comparable to what Molly used on her friends. If he used a charm or some other type or artifact to produce a similar effect he would have needed to pump power into it continuously, much like Harry did with his gear and wards.

It's possible, however unlikely, that someone discovered a way into Archangel from the Never Never, which would have bypassed the wards.  Jim showed one possible mechanism in Skin Game.  These are some random thoughts on the subject.

[peregrine]

Also, Fire when used in a certain way has a cleansing aspect to it, that can wipe away magics and whatnot.  And there was a lot of fire being thrown around when Harry and Justin were going at it.  Some of that splash may have affected other magics in the area.

[Cozarkian]

Those are all good comments. I think I've been imagining the enthrallment as too much of a "puppet master" spell than it actually is. But if Justin's death didn't end the enthrallment, does that mean Elaine is still suffering from permanent changes to her way of thinking?

On retrospect, if Elaine ran from the fire early in the battle, it is also possible she could escape the White Council. The White Council would be on the hunt for Harry and would have his magic signature to use to find him. However, they wouldn't know Elaine existed and the fire could have cleansed the signs of any magic Elaine had used. Since Leah was hanging around watching over Harry, there also could have been someone from Summer hanging around who swooped in to take advantage of Elaine's situation.

But, I do still think Justin escaping into the NN with Elaine is quite possible. Elaine may have run from the fire, but she could have just as easily stuck around fighting an internal battle against enthrallment as to whether she would help Justin or Harry. If the latter happened, Justin could still have opened a way to the NN, taken Elaine with him, then gone to summer and struck a deal for the two of them, in which he basically indebted Elaine to Summer in exchange for Summer's help in hiding the fact he is still alive from the WC. The theory is still viable, although less likely.

[LordDragonFire]

Those are all good comments. I think I've been imagining the enthrallment as too much of a "puppet master" spell than it actually is. But if Justin's death didn't end the enthrallment, does that mean Elaine is still suffering from permanent changes to her way of thinking?

On retrospect, if Elaine ran from the fire early in the battle, it is also possible she could escape the White Council. The White Council would be on the hunt for Harry and would have his magic signature to use to find him. However, they wouldn't know Elaine existed and the fire could have cleansed the signs of any magic Elaine had used. Since Leah was hanging around watching over Harry, there also could have been someone from Summer hanging around who swooped in to take advantage of Elaine's situation.

But, I do still think Justin escaping into the NN with Elaine is quite possible. Elaine may have run from the fire, but she could have just as easily stuck around fighting an internal battle against enthrallment as to whether she would help Justin or Harry. If the latter happened, Justin could still have opened a way to the NN, taken Elaine with him, then gone to summer and struck a deal for the two of them, in which he basically indebted Elaine to Summer in exchange for Summer's help in hiding the fact he is still alive from the WC. The theory is still viable, although less likely.

It's possible...but I think Cowl's recruitment pitch would have been better targeted if Cowl was Justin.

Also, he went to a lot of trouble to acquire two potential Starborn....would he really sell one to Summer?