Curious passage in Summer Knight. Justin evidence?

[Mr. Death]

Those are all good comments. I think I've been imagining the enthrallment as too much of a "puppet master" spell than it actually is. But if Justin's death didn't end the enthrallment, does that mean Elaine is still suffering from permanent changes to her way of thinking?

Probably! After all, Molly's victims are probably going to be feeling the effects of what she did the rest of their lives, too.

On retrospect, if Elaine ran from the fire early in the battle, it is also possible she could escape the White Council. The White Council would be on the hunt for Harry and would have his magic signature to use to find him. However, they wouldn't know Elaine existed and the fire could have cleansed the signs of any magic Elaine had used. Since Leah was hanging around watching over Harry, there also could have been someone from Summer hanging around who swooped in to take advantage of Elaine's situation.

Would make sense, with the whole Winter/Summer mirroring aspect.

But, I do still think Justin escaping into the NN with Elaine is quite possible. Elaine may have run from the fire, but she could have just as easily stuck around fighting an internal battle against enthrallment as to whether she would help Justin or Harry. If the latter happened, Justin could still have opened a way to the NN, taken Elaine with him, then gone to summer and struck a deal for the two of them, in which he basically indebted Elaine to Summer in exchange for Summer's help in hiding the fact he is still alive from the WC. The theory is still viable, although less likely.

I would have to check to make sure, but I'm pretty sure they found a body in the wreckage. Doesn't Bob specify in either Fool Moon or Summer Knight that Elaine is alive because they only found one body?

Also, yeah, Cowl very much acts like someone who's never met Harry, not someone who raised him for several years and lost a duel to him.

[exartiem]

There is at least one WOJ where he has stated categorically that Justin is dead, with an emphasis on DEAD.  However, as established especially in Dead Beat and Ghost Story, being dead does not necessarily mean you are out of the game.

I find it very unlikely that a schemer like Justin would be caught without a backup plan.  Elaine was in Justin's thrall for quite some time.  Plenty of time for him to prepare her in some way.

1: Justin could be riding along or controlling Elaine, a la Corpsetaker.  She might be aware, or not.  He could be hiding in her subconscious and only controlling her when she sleeps.  Justin could have informed the RCV then.

2: Justin is a spirit, a la Evil Bob and Kravos.  He was well versed in necromancy.  He could have communicated to the RCV through an Ectomancer (I doubt Mort is the only one of those).

3:  Justin used necromancy to make himself into a litch.  Harry said, IIRC, that Cowl's magic felt somewhat familiar, but dark and twisted.  This seems to fit.

[groinkick]

There is at least one WOJ where he has stated categorically that Justin is dead, with an emphasis on DEAD. 

He has also said that there are two pieces of misinformation that he has put out purposely.......

[peregrine]

2: Justin is a spirit, a la Evil Bob and Kravos.  He was well versed in necromancy. 

Was he?  He had Bob, but I don't recall anything mentioning him being especially versed in necromancy.

[LordDragonFire]

There is at least one WOJ where he has stated categorically that Justin is dead, with an emphasis on DEAD.  However, as established especially in Dead Beat and Ghost Story, being dead does not necessarily mean you are out of the game.

I find it very unlikely that a schemer like Justin would be caught without a backup plan.  Elaine was in Justin's thrall for quite some time.  Plenty of time for him to prepare her in some way.

1: Justin could be riding along or controlling Elaine, a la Corpsetaker.  She might be aware, or not.  He could be hiding in her subconscious and only controlling her when she sleeps.  Justin could have informed the RCV then.

2: Justin is a spirit, a la Evil Bob and Kravos.  He was well versed in necromancy.  He could have communicated to the RCV through an Ectomancer (I doubt Mort is the only one of those).

3:  Justin used necromancy to make himself into a litch.  Harry said, IIRC, that Cowl's magic felt somewhat familiar, but dark and twisted.  This seems to fit.

When was it said that Justin was a skilled necromancer?

[Mira]

When was it said that Justin was a skilled necromancer?

I don't think it was ever said that he was... However Bob did have the knowledge and his memories at that point in time were not blocked.  Having said that, could Justin have risen himself from the dead?  Is there a way to do that?  Or the only logical possibility is Elaine was still enthralled and had been given the knowledge by Justin at some point, she could have done it..  However that doesn't make any sense since it is doubtful that the wardens would have left Justin's remains behind when they nabbed Harry.  But then again, Peabody comes to mind if he had the knowledge and was doing his traitor bit that long ago.

[groinkick]

another thing to consider is that when Harry threatened to use his death curse, Kumori told him that Cowl had survived them before....  Although Justin wasn't hit with a death curse by Harry, if Justin is Cowl it would show that he may have ways of returning from death, or near death.  Cowl was also scarred up on his arms, perhaps burn scars?

I also wonder if Simon knew of Justin being alive (kept it secret because like Eb he loved his apprentice), and realized at the last moment he'd been betrayed.  The death curse he used to kill the Red Nobles could also have been aimed at Cowl who defended against it.

[Snark Knight]

I would have to check to make sure, but I'm pretty sure they found a body in the wreckage. Doesn't Bob specify in either Fool Moon or Summer Knight that Elaine is alive because they only found one body?

Also, yeah, Cowl very much acts like someone who's never met Harry, not someone who raised him for several years and lost a duel to him.

I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that only one body was recovered from the ashes of Justin's home. Plus, Harry wouldn't have had nearly as much of a stain on him when the Wardens examined him if he'd swung at Justin and missed.

I do wonder about the possibility of Justin preserving something of himself as a backseat driver who can manage occasional control over Elaine, though. Might rationalize her being Kumori, although I'm still not sure how she ends up on the opposite side of White Night from Cowl if she is.

[Mira]

another thing to consider is that when Harry threatened to use his death curse, Kumori told him that Cowl had survived them before....  Although Justin wasn't hit with a death curse by Harry, if Justin is Cowl it would show that he may have ways of returning from death, or near death.  Cowl was also scarred up on his arms, perhaps burn scars?

   Yeah, but the way I understand it, a "death curse" is the curse that a wizard throws at someone with his or her dying breath..  If you receive it it doesn't mean you will die on the spot..  Lord Raith didn't, heck, Harry didn't, [though Cassius wasn't a wizard] he was only doomed to die alone, not immediately..   Actually I think a death curse can be a number of things like cursing someone with purple warts on his or her nose for life..

[Yuillegan]

I was going to respond to a lot of this, then ended up writing up a massive theory. I will link it: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53047.0.html

   Yeah, but the way I understand it, a "death curse" is the curse that a wizard throws at someone with his or her dying breath..  If you receive it it doesn't mean you will die on the spot..  Lord Raith didn't, heck, Harry didn't, [though Cassius wasn't a wizard] he was only doomed to die alone, not immediately..   Actually I think a death curse can be a number of things like cursing someone with purple warts on his or her nose for life..

Yes, they do but the act kills them - it is all the energy they have left. But depending on how they can use that energy based on talent, skill and knowledge the difference might be between killing an individual or a room and nuking a small fortress (like Simon). Frequently described by Harry as being able to level several city blocks (see Grave Peril I think). While technically it doesn't mean you will die (the "Death" in Death Curse is about the caster dying, not the target), it is all about what you use that last spell for. So if all you can manage is purple warts or die alone, sucks to be you. Because some like Margaret Le Fay realise that you can do a lot more with it, like shut down an enemies power when you can't kill them.

[Mira]

I was going to respond to a lot of this, then ended up writing up a massive theory. I will link it:

Yes, they do but the act kills them - it is all the energy they have left. But depending on how they can use that energy based on talent, skill and knowledge the difference might be between killing an individual or a room and nuking a small fortress (like Simon). Frequently described by Harry as being able to level several city blocks (see Grave Peril I think). While technically it doesn't mean you will die (the "Death" in Death Curse is about the caster dying, not the target), it is all about what you use that last spell for. So if all you can manage is purple warts or die alone, sucks to be you. Because some like Margaret Le Fay realise that you can do a lot more with it, like shut down an enemies power when you can't kill them.

You miss my point, or perhaps I wasn't very good at making it...  Harry did the killing, he didn't throw a death curse... That's the last act of the one dying.  If anyone was going to throw a death curse it would have been Justin, since he was the one dying... Unless of course he died instantly before he could throw it at Harry... Or for some reason he did want to...

[Cozarkian]

There is at least one WOJ where he has stated categorically that Justin is dead, with an emphasis on DEAD.  However, as established especially in Dead Beat and Ghost Story, being dead does not necessarily mean you are out of the game.

I really don't know what I was thinking, you are right. I believe the quote was Justin is dead, D-E-D (deliberately mispelled) dead. Also, if I recall, when asked if Justin was as dead as Harry, JB said "Oh, at least that dead."

Thus, my theory is bunk, Justin did die in the fire. However, that doesn't mean he didn't somehow help Elaine escape to the NN or temporarily take over Elaine's body somehow and makee deals with Summer that Elaine was then bound to honor, since it was her body that made the deal. There's just too much mention of Justin to be a deceased bad-guy mentor that we won't see again, and to much mystery about Elaine for her disappearance to be as simple as "I ran away" and got caught up with Summer by happenstance.

[Cozarkian]

You miss my point, or perhaps I wasn't very good at making it...  Harry did the killing, he didn't throw a death curse... That's the last act of the one dying.  If anyone was going to throw a death curse it would have been Justin, since he was the one dying... Unless of course he died instantly before he could throw it at Harry... Or for some reason he did want to...

I note Corpsetaker had a death without an apparent death curse. Was it actually Corpsetaker's death curse that allowed her to enter the spirit world and avoid what comes next? I don't know but if it was and Justin also didn't throw a death curse . . .

[exartiem]

When was it said that Justin was a skilled necromancer?

It wasn't, directly.  But I made an assumption based on the fact that Justin was a Warden who spent decades, at least, hunting and fighting necromancers, including Kemmler himself.  He would have learned enough about necromancy in order to be able to fight it.  He had been corrupted (or whatever) while fighting necromancers, thus it is likely that he would have picked up some of their tricks.

Also, since he was going to be betraying the WC and the Wardens, he would see great value in necromantic ways of avoiding death.  It just makes sense.

[Yuillegan]

You miss my point, or perhaps I wasn't very good at making it...  Harry did the killing, he didn't throw a death curse... That's the last act of the one dying.  If anyone was going to throw a death curse it would have been Justin, since he was the one dying... Unless of course he died instantly before he could throw it at Harry... Or for some reason he did want to...

I think we can both agree on the process of a Death Curse then. My point is exactly that, Justin did not throw a Death Curse which is very strange. We do not know exactly how Justin died or what killed him, though the implication in the text was that Harry's magical fire did it during their duel. Which generally I think would not kill a person fast enough to stop them performing a Death Curse (unless it was like Luccio's heat ray through the brain).

Cozarkian, thank you. That quote from JB was exactly one I was looking for. I mean seriously does he have to spell it out? Your theory is plausable, though of course we have no real way of knowing how exactly Justin came back from his body death. But you are exactly right; there is too much emotional weight with him as a character, and Elaine, and too many references to him not to use him as such. Elaine almost certainly did not just stumble into Summer. And remember, there is an ongoing undertone that Summer are really trying to kill Harry, and seem to have very odd links to the bad guys.

Corpsetaker's death is an interesting case study. I think because Harry shoots him/her in the back of the head with no warning is the most likely reason that there was no Death Curse leveled at them. Whether Corpsetaker used a Death Curse as a means of continuing in the Between is another matter. Although I would point out, it was not necessary at all for Dresden's shade/soul to do such a thing to be able to be a part of events and still have a form of magic. He did have some pretty top-tier help though, and his body hadn't died so there are some differences. Though as Mab says, "Death is a spectrum, not a line". So my theory is that even if Justin had "died" it doesn't mean he wouldn't be able to come back again through his knowledge of Necromancy (assuming he is Cowl/can perform). I think it is reasonably apparent in the DV that you don't instantly go to beyond, or cease to exist. You soul/spirit carries on and exists and functions at a higher level. Which makes sense in a story that involves Necromancy and multiple afterlife destinations.