If the Council had tried to execute Molly in Proven Guilty...

[DonBugen]

But given that my premise is essentially "but what if He didn't step in" this isn't really relevant.

So your actual argument is not that Harry would never pick up a coin in the circumstances stated in my premise--it is that my premise is ludicrous and invalid.

It seemed to me that your premise wasn't that Michael wasn't coming (after all, you mentioned Michael); it was that there was a delay and there was an actual fight that broke out, and the heat got turned up.  My actual argument IS that Harry wouldn't pick up the coin in those circumstances - I pretty much made that my closing statement.  I stand by that. 

If you want to argue "What would happen if TWG wasn't going to save Harry or Molly at all," that's a completely different argument, because in Proven Guilty, Dresden's second-guessed TWG's plan perfectly.  That implies that TWG's personality and motives are different.

If TWG was actually fundamentally different than he is portrayed in The Dresden Files, that would then mean Dresden is fundamentally wrong in his estimation of TWG's motives.  That would mean that Lasciel would be aware that Dresden is incorrect, as she knows TWG far better than most mortals.  That would mean that she would be far better able to argue, convince, and manipulate Harry, arguing from a correct standpoint rather than an incorrect standpoint.  That would mean that, whether Harry would have accepted the coin or not, it would have been based upon a hypothetical situation in a hypothetical universe that does not in any way reflect how the series is actually portrayed.

I try not to get involved in discussions like that.  Starting your premise being "what if X character was different than how he/she is portrayed" is relevant for fan fiction, but not so much for logical discussion.  And yeah, I guess, if that's your posed hypothetical statement then I'm going to have to bow out - not because "it's ludicrous and invalid," but just because my only valid contribution is, "Well, that wouldn't happen, because it didn't happen."

[nadia.skylark]

It seemed to me that your premise wasn't that Michael wasn't coming (after all, you mentioned Michael); it was that there was a delay and there was an actual fight that broke out, and the heat got turned up.  My actual argument IS that Harry wouldn't pick up the coin in those circumstances - I pretty much made that my closing statement.  I stand by that. 

If you want to argue "What would happen if TWG wasn't going to save Harry or Molly at all," that's a completely different argument, because in Proven Guilty, Dresden's second-guessed TWG's plan perfectly.  That implies that TWG's personality and motives are different.

Ah. I think this is my fault. I was reading an older thread about this topic, and when I posted this thread I forgot to include the context.

What I was thinking about when I wrote was is a debate about whether, if Michael showed up either in the middle of the Harry vs. White Council fight or after Molly had been executed, he would be able to wield Amorrachius against the White Council without it breaking, because he would be fighting out of vengeance. I tend to think that in this situation, the Sword would at the very least not be operating at full capacity, and might very well break.

Thus, the context in which Harry might pick up the coin would be that either Michael has shown up and is losing (possibly with Amorrachius broken) or TWG's contrived coincidence thing was interfered with by other free-willed people and as such He arranged for Michael not to show up in the middle of that fight because He knew it would end badly for team good guys.

Does that make more sense?

[Kindler]

Harry has a rather low opinion of himself, I think. In Dead Beat, he works with Lash after he abandons hope, because he doesn't believe that TWG would think he was worth saving. The glimmer of faith he had was only because there was an ex-Denarian there. Harry never thought that TWG would care about him, only that He would naturally want a Denarian stopped. He doesn't think of himself as a good person.

In Proven Guilty, the person Harry respects most—and what Harry probably considers to be the pinnacle of human goodness—has his family at risk. Because he's such a good person, and because he's pretty much seen that TWG does like Michael, Harry has faith that TWG wouldn't let Michael suffer. That's part of the reason he's so furious in Small Favor, I think.

Then in Changes, Harry no longer cares about temptation, really. He's gone full Winchester-in-the-seasons-when-Supernatural-wasn't-awful, ready to do whatever it takes to protect his family. He'd still prefer a less mustache-twirly option, which is why he goes to Winter, but he'd do it if he had to. In fact, I'm kinda surprised he didn't go for the Coin, too. Winter Knight=strong. Winter Denarian=Stronger.

Hell, having Lasciel back in his head might be helping keep back the Winter Knight's baser instincts right now. Lasciel was more articulate, and I doubt she'd have stood for some of the more primal urges the Mantle pushes on Harry.

[nadia.skylark]

Harry has a rather low opinion of himself, I think. In Dead Beat, he works with Lash after he abandons hope, because he doesn't believe that TWG would think he was worth saving. The glimmer of faith he had was only because there was an ex-Denarian there. Harry never thought that TWG would care about him, only that He would naturally want a Denarian stopped. He doesn't think of himself as a good person.

In Proven Guilty, the person Harry respects most—and what Harry probably considers to be the pinnacle of human goodness—has his family at risk. Because he's such a good person, and because he's pretty much seen that TWG does like Michael, Harry has faith that TWG wouldn't let Michael suffer. That's part of the reason he's so furious in Small Favor, I think.

Good point. I hadn't thought about it that way.

Then in Changes, Harry no longer cares about temptation, really. He's gone full Winchester-in-the-seasons-when-Supernatural-wasn't-awful, ready to do whatever it takes to protect his family. He'd still prefer a less mustache-twirly option, which is why he goes to Winter, but he'd do it if he had to. In fact, I'm kinda surprised he didn't go for the Coin, too. Winter Knight=strong. Winter Denarian=Stronger.

Hell, having Lasciel back in his head might be helping keep back the Winter Knight's baser instincts right now. Lasciel was more articulate, and I doubt she'd have stood for some of the more primal urges the Mantle pushes on Harry.

Definitely--or even only calling Lasciel's coin. I always thought that Lasciel or whoever the whisperer was messed that up--I believe that if Harry wanted to live through rescuing Maggie, he would have gone for Lasciel's coin because he knew there was an exit strategy. It was only after he was pushed into being suicidal that Mab started looking like the better option.

[morriswalters]

Two possibilities arise. Michael arrives before Molly is executed or he arrives after. 
 
If the first, Michael is traveling with half the Senior Council and they are followed close on by whoever was chasing them. It's hard to see how a fight would evolve out of the chaos of his arrival in this situation.

If the second, then Harry is dead and there will be no fight involving Michael. Harry has sworn to protect her with his life.

In a close quarters fight Harry and Molly would have died quickly. That seems to be established.  Harry wouldn't have had time to take advantage of whatever Lasciel could have offered.  Reason demands that Harry would have had to make the decision to use either the coin or Mab's offer before entering the circle.  And he didn't.

[nadia.skylark]

If the first, Michael is traveling with half the Senior Council and they are followed close on by whoever was chasing them. It's hard to see how a fight would evolve out of the chaos of his arrival in this situation.

The idea here is that the fight would have already started, and that he would be arriving in the middle of it.

In a close quarters fight Harry and Molly would have died quickly. That seems to be established.  Harry wouldn't have had time to take advantage of whatever Lasciel could have offered.  Reason demands that Harry would have had to make the decision to use either the coin or Mab's offer before entering the circle.  And he didn't.

You're forgetting Lash's time-slowing trick. So long as Harry can last a few seconds, there is time for him to call the coin to him.

[morriswalters]

No I haven't forgotten it.  But  Lasciel isn't Superwoman.  Harry defeats her fairly easily in Skin Game.   And Harry would have been up against Morgans sword which is designed to cleave magic and against the Merlin, who by Jim's word is the most powerful living wizard. 

Everyone was locked out with the wards the wardens put on the meeting place, Michael couldn't have gotten in until the fight was over.  Unless the Gatekeeper was prepared to open the door once the fight had started.  Jim set the stage fairly well.

I looked wildly around the room for someone, anyone to help, for some way to stop this madness. I felt a sudden pressure against my spine, and I looked over my shoulder.
My eyes fell on the Gatekeeper.

“True,” the Gatekeeper replied, very gently, the faintest shade of rebuke in his voice. “But that does not change my moral obligation to make this decision with care.”
The Merlin took a deep breath and then said, forced calm in his voice, “I suppose a few moments for thought are not unreasonable.”
“Thank you,” the Gatekeeper said gravely.
Five minutes went by like five thousand years. Molly sagged against me, so frightened she could barely stand.
“Enough,” the Merlin said, finally. “This travesty needs to end.”
“On that point,” the Gatekeeper said, “we agree.” And then he stepped forward to the circle marked on the floor, and smudged it with his boot, breaking the circle. He flicked a gloved hand, and the lock on the chained door sprang open and fell away, followed closely by the chains.

Every event in the building was a play for time, each actor taking a round extending the event until Michael and the others could escape to Chicago.  The Gatekeeper was watching Michael run with the others, letting Harry extend the string until he ran out at which point the Gatekeeper intervened to run out the clock on the Merlin.

[groinkick]

[nadia.skylark]

No I haven't forgotten it.  But  Lasciel isn't Superwoman.  Harry defeats her fairly easily in Skin Game.   And Harry would have been up against Morgans sword which is designed to cleave magic and against the Merlin, who by Jim's word is the most powerful living wizard.

That's why what Lasciel would do is help him escape.

Everyone was locked out with the wards the wardens put on the meeting place, Michael couldn't have gotten in until the fight was over.

The wards can't be that strong--there's no threshold. And if they were that strong I would expect Harry to have commented on it, if only in the same way he always comments on it when he's reminded of how strong the Merlin really is.

[morriswalters]

What is your point?  What does this scenario accomplish?  If Michael broke the sword he would no longer be a Knight, he would have broken with his faith.  Harry and Molly would be outlaws under a sentence of death assuming that they escaped.

In terms of how powerful a ward can be I offer this.

"If Senior Council members McCoy and Liberty had not come to our aid, we might have all died there. Even with them, we managed to hold them only long enough for the Gatekeeper and the Merlin to raise a ward behind us, to give us time to escape."
"A ward?" I blurted. "Are you telling me that they stonewalled an entire army of vampires and demons? With one ward?"
"You don't get to be Merlin of the White Council by collecting bottle caps," Ramirez said, his voice dry.

[nadia.skylark]

What is your point?  What does this scenario accomplish?  If Michael broke the sword he would no longer be a Knight, he would have broken with his faith.  Harry and Molly would be outlaws under a sentence of death assuming that they escaped.

I'm confused. This thread is about whether Harry would take up Lasciel's coin in the hypothetical scenarios postulated here (Michael arrives in the middle of the fight and is losing; Michael does not arrive at all). I think it could go either way. What do you mean "what does this scenario accomplish?"

In terms of how powerful a ward can be I offer this.

That's why I included this in my response:

And if they were that strong I would expect Harry to have commented on it, if only in the same way he always comments on it when he's reminded of how strong the Merlin really is.

We've seen several situations where the Merlin does something impossibly difficult, and every time Harry's narration notes it specifically and comments on it. As such, I assume if the Merlin had put up one of his impossible wards on the warehouse, Harry's narration would have commented on it (I know Harry's bad at sensing magic, but I don't think even he could miss a super-ward when he was walking through it).

[Avernite]

Eh, the true power of that meeting's defence was a circle on the ground; it'd keep in in, and out out, but any halfwit human could have broken it by smudging it (as the Gatekeeper did, though he is no halfwit).

[morriswalters]

As to would Harry take up the coin.  The question is asked and answered in White Knight.  He refuses to do so even to save the thralls or his allies including his brother.  When I ask you what is the point, I'm asking you, in effect, how is the plot served?

Eh, the true power of that meeting's defence was a circle on the ground; it'd keep in in, and out out, but any halfwit human could have broken it by smudging it (as the Gatekeeper did, though he is no halfwit).

Of course there were the two halfwits outside and the chain on the door.  And the walls of the warehouse to keep the halfwits from doing it from the outside. And yet Eb seemed to feel it was safer in the warehouse that outside on the porch.

[nadia.skylark]

As to would Harry take up the coin.  The question is asked and answered in White Knight.  He refuses to do so even to save the thralls or his allies including his brother.

I had thought that everyone but Harry and Lara had escaped by that point. Am I misremembering?

When I ask you what is the point, I'm asking you, in effect, how is the plot served?

Some possibilities, in no particular order (not all of these are compatible with each other):

-Molly's plot line would be completely different.
-The Paranet would never have been formed--or maybe it would have been formed partially to work against the White Council? It would depend on how much contact Thomas had with Harry.
-Harry might try to find Elaine and get some advice about hiding from the Council, or he might go to South America since the war would make it much harder for the White Council to track him and Molly down there and find out about Maggie sooner. Maybe he ends up teaching both Molly and Hannah?
-His magic would almost certainly end up an order of magnitude better, between having Lasciel as a teacher and what he'd need to learn to hide from the White Council.
-Chicago would have to cope with losing its protector years earlier, and it wouldn't even have Marcone as a freeholding lord to help--but on the other hand, they wouldn't have the Fomor causing trouble there for years, so they might be in better shape when that happens.
-Nicodemus would know that Harry wasn't in Chicago any more, so the whole "kidnap the Archive" plan wouldn't happen.
-No idea what would happen with the plot of Turn Coat, but probably things turn out a lot worse for the Council--maybe Morgan decides that since there's no one he can go to for help, he might as well go out in a blaze of glory, heads to South America to attack the Red Court, and meets Harry there?
-That's not even getting into the thing with Harry and Lasciel. Maybe instead of actually redeeming Lash, Lasciel pretends that Harry's changing her and Harry has to realize that she's faking it?
-Maybe Harry still bonds with Demonreach because he needs to be in Chicago to stop the White Court killing practitioners, and Lasciel suggests bonding with the island so that he can use it to hide (her motive, of course, is that the Fallen like apocalypses and the island can cause a big one).
-Harry still ends up killing Maeve, but as his second favor to Mab rather than because he's her Knight--maybe in the process he finds out about the war at the Outer Gates and decides to bargain a certain number of favors to Mab in exchange for her stopping the Council from hunting him down, with the understanding that she'll use them for protecting the world from Outsiders.
-Someone who isn't Molly probably ends up winter lady--maybe instead of killing Maeve immediately, Harry traps her on Demonreach for a year while Mab prepares a vessel.
-Chichen Itza is going to be viewed very differently if Harry is working with Lasciel when it happens, given the level of destruction that Harry ends up causing there.
-Michael is going to have some conflict dealing with the fact that Harry picked up Lasciel's coin to save his daughter.
-Harry still screws Nicodemus over in Skin Game, but the entire thing looks like an internal conflict, so Marcone doesn't end up looking good because of it and Mab is still plotting her revenge on Nic. Maybe Harry ends up representing the Denarians in Peace Talks, if only Nic was no longer part of the Accords?
-Maybe Harry ends up learning white necromancy to fight the Red Court, raising the ghosts of their victims against them (Jim has said that Lasciel would be Harry's black magic teacher, and has called what Harry did at the end of Grave Peril "white necromancy"). He would also learn things like Kumori's life-saving trick, and we could watch him slowly slip into using more standard necromancy until someone calls him on it (this could be parallel to Murphy calling Harry on his temper problems in White Night, and could help him realize what Lasciel is doing to him).
-Maybe Harry ends up working for Lily on a semi-regular basis, helping to launch offensives against the Red Court when the rest of Summer is tied up (he already has the Oak Leaf, and he's clearly done at least one job for Lily before. Titania might agree not to interfere on the basis that it would make it more likely for Harry to be killed or captured by the Red Court). If so, he could notice that Maeve could lie much earlier.

Honestly, I just really like Lash even when she was still just a copy of Lasciel, so by extension I figure I would really like getting to see Lasciel and Harry work together (I wasn't fond of Lasciel in Skin Game, but that was when she was working with Hannah).

[morriswalters]

You are misrembering. 

I didn't ask you how the plot would change, I asked you how the plot was served.  The plot was a quest to save Molly. Here was the promise to Charity.

I walked across the floor and lowered myself to one knee before Charity. “I don’t know anything about that. But for whatever it is worth, I promise you,” I said very quietly. “I will bring your daughter back from the Council safe and well. They’ll have to kill me to stop me.”

Molly forever a fugitive and almost certainly a warlock seems to not fulfill that promise.

Probably the greatest loss plot wise, though I won't argue it, is that Bonea never comes alive.