A Map (cont'd) Spoilers Spoilers Spoilers

[belgarion]

One thought so far in this discussion:
Amara and Bernard leave the vicinity of Kalara, fly east and land in Attica on their way to Alera Imperia. It's toward the end of CaF on page 447 of the hard cover edition. The alternative map won't work with the text.
"Amara lifted them both into the air. It was far more work than she would have had to do if she had ben alone, but she wasn't trying to set any speed records. Even so, only a day of travel carried them into the lands surrounding neighboring Attica, and to a traveler's inn beside one of the causeways."

After re-reading PF, I think your are right in terms of the Sea of Ice being an Inland Sea. That's the only way I can think of for the Marat and the Icemen being able to trade. Neither race appears to have sea travel abilitiy that we've seen.


M

[belgarion]

Revised the BW map:
Sea of Ice is now an inland sea. Left Phrygia and Antillus flopped. Can always put them back the way they were.

Moved Ceres, Kalare, Atticus etc. farther south. Also moved the Calderon Valley farther south.


http://flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/3197405232/

M

[Spyndel]

Revised the BW map:
http://flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/3197405232/

Hey, looking good!  I really hope you dont mind, but I made a few notes, and just redlined them over your map. Its always annoying when someone does that, but its just easier to communicate that way...I apologize.


http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/6126/notesae3.jpg

1) This is what I was speaking about in my previous post.  If Phyrigia is indeed "thousands of miles from the sea" ( I really have trouble reconciling this...maybe Max was exaggerating, but we have no way of knowing), we're going to have to  significantly alter our image of the Aleran/ Iceman boundary and shieldwall.  One way to push Phrydgia further inland would be to move Placida up and out as a buffer between the coast and Phrydgia.

Regardless, it forces us to define the shieldwall as something that does *not* run coast to coast, as otherwise, if there are only two shieldwall cities, then both of them would *have* to be adjacent to water. Perhaps the shieldwall is an earthcrafted barrier bookended by one or two naturally impassable mountain ranges.


2) Ceres evidently needs to be in the Southwest, and its still slightly north of Alera Imperia right now.   In fact, I think all the "southern" cities need to shuffle counter clockwise a bit, and Alera Imperia need to move further north a bit  in order to make the "southern" region easier to define.  Theres another reason to move Alera Imperia a tad bit north as well, as Ill note in #3.


3.) I think Alera Imperia needs to get bumped up slightly north for a couple reasons.  One, if you move Placida over a bit, it can move up and take over some of that vacated space.  Two, it would make it easier to define Ceres as a southern/southwestern city. Three, the whole issue of Amara's flight...  I still think Riva/Calderon need to come down a bit to make it possible for Amara to have flown over the sea of ice.

 But check this out.  I read the passage you cited in AF about how Amara flew over the Sea of Ice to get to Calderon/Garrison.  But it says she flew along the *coastline* to the Sea of Ice, not necessarily across the water.  Since she was serving as a liason between the Crown and Bernard, her most probable origin point was the Capitol.  This is easier to reconcile...basically, as long as the Sea of Ice coast is more or less level with Alera Imperia, or maybe a little lower, its easy to see this flight.


4)Aquataine didnt make Jim's list of Southern Cities, so I think it has to come up to at least even with Alera Imperia, or a little north, and Rhodes moved a little west and up to ensure it stays adjacent to Aquataine at some point.  It might require a little fidgeting with Riva.


5) In FoC, Amara describes Calderon as being the valley *beyond* the isthmus/ landbridge into the marat territory, not *on* it.  More of a frontier.   This might be your intention, but the way the land gets skinny again after Calderon confuses the issue a bit.



Anyways, great continued work...I'm sorry for the notes...feel free to point out any errors in my thinking.  I think we'll find we're going to have to alter the shape of the land in some places to make all this stuff work.

[belgarion]

1) This is what I was speaking about in my previous post.  If Phyrigia is indeed "thousands of miles from the sea" ( I really have trouble reconciling this...maybe Max was exaggerating, but we have no way of knowing), we're going to have to  significantly alter our image of the Aleran/ Iceman boundary and shieldwall.  One way to push Phrydgia further inland would be to move Placida up and out as a buffer between the coast and Phrydgia.

Regardless, it forces us to define the shieldwall as something that does *not* run coast to coast, as otherwise, if there are only two shieldwall cities, then both of them would *have* to be adjacent to water. Perhaps the shieldwall is an earthcrafted barrier bookended by one or two naturally impassable mountain ranges.

1)   Hmmm. The Romans were famous for building long fortification walls, and the Alerans are Romans. I don't think it's out of the realm of probability/possibility that they would construct and defend a wall that long. Think of the great wall of China.
Thing is, I think each high lord would require direct access to Aleria Imperia without having to go through someone else's city state. The problem with that is Kalare who is pinched into the west coast and has Atticus in the way.

Originally, of course we had Phyrigia and Antillus reversed which could put Phyrigia a thousand miles from the sea (Max doesn't state which sea), I also had both the cities much closer together toward the center of the two states.

2) Ceres evidently needs to be in the Southwest, and its still slightly north of Alera Imperia right now.   In fact, I think all the "southern" cities need to shuffle counter clockwise a bit, and Alera Imperia need to move further north a bit  in order to make the "southern" region easier to define.  Theres another reason to move Alera Imperia a tad bit north as well, as Ill note in #3.

2)
Problem with this is that in CuF, it's stated that if the Cannim go over the Elinarch and Kalare forces take Ceres there is nothing to stop them all  from hitting Aleria Imperia. The way you have the red line drawn, they'd have to go through Kalare to get to the capitol. Kalare was meglamaniac but he wouldn't have made that mistake. He wouldn't want the Cannim anywhere near Kalare city.
Another thing is at the beginning of CuF, Tavi is with Magnus in the ruins of Appia in "The Vale", then to the First Alerans still training in "The Vale" and then to the Elinarch. The Cannim are protecting Kalare's norther flank. We need to think more about this.
And also in CuF, it's stated that  2 of Kalare's seven legions hold the passes to the Black Hills which are west of Ceres and Alera Imperial.
Oh and Amara flew 3000 miles from the capitol to the legion camp east of Kalare in three days (direct).

3.) I think Alera Imperia needs to get bumped up slightly north for a couple reasons.  One, if you move Placida over a bit, it can move up and take over some of that vacated space.  Two, it would make it easier to define Ceres as a southern/southwestern city. Three, the whole issue of Amara's flight...  I still think Riva/Calderon need to come down a bit to make it possible for Amara to have flown over the sea of ice.

 But check this out.  I read the passage you cited in AF about how Amara flew over the Sea of Ice to get to Calderon/Garrison.  But it says she flew along the *coastline* to the Sea of Ice, not necessarily across the water.  Since she was serving as a liason between the Crown and Bernard, her most probable origin point was the Capitol.  This is easier to reconcile...basically, as long as the Sea of Ice coast is more or less level with Alera Imperia, or maybe a little lower, its easy to see this flight.

3) Well, this could work. I originally had Aleria Imperia farther north and the consensus was that it should be where it is now. I'd have to look in the pdf files to determine why we moved it further south.

4)Aquataine didnt make Jim's list of Southern Cities, so I think it has to come up to at least even with Alera Imperia, or a little north, and Rhodes moved a little west and up to ensure it stays adjacent to Aquataine at some point.  It might require a little fidgeting with Riva.

4) Rhodes occupies the land formerly occupied by the Children of the Sun. They were forced into the southern most reaches of the Aleran continent and the jungles down there. We have Rhodes as the southern most city state because of that. Thing is in CuF, " Aquitaine, Rhodes and Parcia will be joining forces to retake the bridges over the Gaul." Page 137 Hardcover.  Actually, a lot of geography is contained in those few pages, 135 through 137 or so.

"The Crown Legion, however, was on maneuvers south of the Capital, and I ordered them to your aid within an hour of the first attack. They've been force-marching through the night, and Sir Miles should be arriving with his men within hours."  Also on 137, CuF. Ceres needs to be east of Kalare.

5) In FoC, Amara describes Calderon as being the valley *beyond* the isthmus/ landbridge into the marat territory, not *on* it.  More of a frontier.   This might be your intention, but the way the land gets skinny again after Calderon confuses the issue a bit.

5) Thing is the land does get skinny again at the end of the valley. The Garrision blocks the Marat from coming into the valley and is situated at the opening between two mountain ranges. That's why the garrison is effective. We can reshape things a little but it's still a land bridge according to Jim. The valley is contained in the land bridge. The valley is west of the garrison not east of it.


Edited to fix quotes.  --Priscilla

[Spyndel]

I'll just rebut a couple quick points, and defer to you on the rest.

Originally, of course we had Phyrigia and Antillus reversed which could put Phyrigia a thousand miles from the sea (Max doesn't state which sea), I also had both the cities much closer together toward the center of the two states.

Yes, but its a remark concerning another characters seasickness, and how its possible for him to get seasick. So he's not referring to a specific sea so much, as suggesting Phrygia is "thousand of miles" from *water*.  This suggests that no matter where we put Antillus, east or west, Phrygia has to be more centrally located, and "landlocked", which is a little tougher to visualize.( If Phrygia is touching a coastline, it *cannot* be "thousands of miles" from the sea...it cannot be a single mile from the sea).

The only I way I can see to make this true, is if Antillus is east, to bring Placida up as a buffer between the coast and Phrygia, and if Antillus is west, to stretch Riva up as a buffer.  In either case, that would make one of those two cites touch the Icemen Border, but we know theyre not a shieldwall city.  In that case, they probably need to bump up against some sort of impassable mountains that are not the shieldwall proper.

Thing is the land does get skinny again at the end of the valley. The Garrision blocks the Marat from coming into the valley and is situated at the opening between two mountain ranges. That's why the garrison is effective. We can reshape things a little but it's still a land bridge according to Jim. The valley is contained in the land bridge. The valley is west of the garrison not east of it.

I'm afraid this is just an area where we would differ if I were drawing the map.  Theres no reason it has to get skinny again...a "valley" is a U shaped depression in between mountains, so Garrison can still block the entrance fine if its situated between two mountain masses that are wider on either side.  Calderon valley is simply the only path *through" those mountains.

 If the valley, though, is *beyond* the isthmus, as Amara states, it means its west of Garrison, but "after" the skinniest point.   If it gets skinny again after Calderon, it suggests that the isthmus is continuing beyond Calderon.  It can still be a "land Bridge" between the 2 landmasses, without tapering it again after the isthmus.

A minor point to be sure.  Thanks for taking the time to respond!

[belgarion]

I'll just rebut a couple quick points, and defer to you on the rest.


Yes, but its a remark concerning another characters seasickness, and how its possible for him to get seasick. So he's not referring to a specific sea so much, as suggesting Phrygia is "thousand of miles" from *water*.  This suggests that no matter where we put Antillus, east or west, Phrygia has to be more centrally located, and "landlocked", which is a little tougher to visualize.

I'm afraid this is just an area where we would differ if I were drawing the map.  Theres no reason it has to get skinny again...a "valley" is a U shaped depression in between mountains, so Garrison can still block the entrance fine if its situated between two mountain masses that are wider on either side.  Calderon valley is simply the only path *through" those mountains.

 If the valley, though, is *beyond* the isthmus, it means its west of Garrison, but "after" the skinniest point.   If it gets skinny again after Calderon, it suggests that the isthmus is continuing beyond Calderon.  It can still be a "land Bridge" between the 2 landmasses, without tapering it again after the isthmus.

A minor point to be sure.  Thanks for taking the time to respond!

No problem. Just wondering where our other contributors are. Kokolores, Yshyr, farraday, Belmonte, novium, Oedipus, MerryB, rebona, Meri, Jaroslav, Shortlegge, wandering monk,  afan, Shuglin, and more and  of course Priscellie :-)
And if I missed anyone, I apologize profusely.

I'll work on a revised Calderon tomorrow sometime. We'll keep both up once we agree on a new one. Then I'd like to wait to see what Jim's real map looks like :-)

Mikey

[Priscellie]

Yes, but its a remark concerning another characters seasickness, and how its possible for him to get seasick. So he's not referring to a specific sea so much, as suggesting Phrygia is "thousand of miles" from *water*.  This suggests that no matter where we put Antillus, east or west, Phrygia has to be more centrally located, and "landlocked", which is a little tougher to visualize.( If Phrygia is touching a coastline, it *cannot* be "thousands of miles" from the sea...it cannot be a single mile from the sea).

The only I way I can see to make this true, is if Antillus is east, to bring Placida up as a buffer between the coast and Phrygia, and if Antillus is west, to stretch Riva up as a buffer.  In either case, that would make one of those two cites touch the Icemen Border, but we know theyre not a shieldwall city.  In that case, they probably need to bump up against some sort of impassable mountains that are not the shieldwall proper.

Have we ever had any indication that people sail on the Sea of Ice?  I'm fairly certain that Max was referring to the sea to the west of Carna.

There is a difference between the cities themselves and the land around them.  "Riva" can either refer to the city of Riva or the whole region that is politically represented by Lord Riva.  Sure, Tavi is Rivan, but he doesn't live in the city of Riva.  When Ehren told Max and Tavi that he was being sent to Phrygia, one would guess that he was being sent to the city of Phrygia, which I suppose could be thousands of miles from the ocean, without negating the possibility that there could be Phrygian land touching ocean.

...You know what?  I think Jim screwed up that detail.  I think we should just throw this clue out, frankly.

[Spyndel]

Have we ever had any indication that people sail on the Sea of Ice?  I'm fairly certain that Max was referring to the sea to the west of Carna.

There is a difference between the cities themselves and the land around them.  "Riva" can either refer to the city of Riva or the whole region that is politically represented by Lord Riva.  Sure, Tavi is Rivan, but he doesn't live in the city of Riva.  When Ehren told Max and Tavi that he was being sent to Phrygia, one would guess that he was being sent to the city of Phrygia, which I suppose could be thousands of miles from the ocean, without negating the possibility that there could be Phrygian land touching ocean.

...You know what?  I think Jim screwed up that detail.  I think we should just throw this clue out, frankly.

I was thinking along these lines myself. While I think the remark was applicable to any body of open water that would be near phrydgia (after all, you can get seasick on one sea just as well as another), he could have well been referring to the city proper being that far from water, and not to the region itself.

Theres no way to *know* this other than just guessing, but it certainly makes things easier to visualize if we disregard it, or assume he is speaking of the actual city, and not the surrounding land.

By the way, here is the quote from Amara in FoC that Im basing my Calderon placement on, for reference, though Im sure you're already familiar with it.

"Are you familiar with the significance of the Calderon Valley?"

Amara nodded once. "It lies just over the isthmus between Alera and the plains beyond."

This, in my mind, puts Calderon at the very *end* of the land bridge, or at the beginning of where the new continent is starting to flare open to a larger landmass.  Just because its the only pass through the mountains doesn't mean the land its on or in front of it must be skinny...it simply means the mountains on either side of it must be impassable.

[belgarion]

Here's a modified version:

http://flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/3199689044/

I moved Imperia a bit north, as well as Aquitaine and Riva, same for Placida, although I still think the way we originally had the two northern lords placed was more correct based on Max's comments.

The Calderon Isthmus is now identified as a narrow strip of land connecting the main continent to the valley.
I did some research in Google Earth and looked at aerial views of Isthmus's around the world.
We can change the shape on the eastern end of the valley and make it a bit wider. That's not a problem.

I also added detail for Cannea, well, as much as is described in PF.


Mikey

[Brightbane]

Why is Cannea still so small? I might be completely wrong, but isn't it suppose to dwarf Alera?

[Spyndel]

Here's a modified version:

http://flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/3199689044/

I moved Imperia a bit north, as well as Aquitaine and Riva, same for Placida, although I still think the way we originally had the two northern lords placed was more correct based on Max's comments.

Mikey

Hey, looking great!  I, like Priscelle, think that is best if we just sort of set aside Max's comment for the time being.  If we accept the premise that Max is speaking about Phyridgia the shieldwall city, and not Phyridgia the Realm, then Phridgia can be to the west of Antillus, and *still* be thousands of miles from the sea (either one), depending on how you draw your geography.  And though there is nothing definitive, placing Antillus to the east makes PF slightly easier to visualize.

We can only guess at this stuff though, and you are, of course, free to draw your map any way you choose .

My only lingering nitpicks would be Priscelle's comment that Ceres is supposed to be southwestern.  I think there must be some way to draw out the topography so that this is true, but your concerns about kalare are also addressed. Also, I'd still like to get Aquataine out of the south, since it didnt make Jim's list of southern cities.

Right now Im still designing the map's graphical elements, but when I'm done with that, I think we're close to having something I feel good about putting down on paper.  When I do, I'll be sure to give you layout credit 

[belgarion]

Hey, looking great!  I, like Priscelle, think that is best if we just sort of set aside Max's comment for the time being.  If we accept the premise that Max is speaking about Phyridgia the shieldwall city, and not Phyridgia the Realm, then Phridgia can be to the west of Antillus, and *still* be thousands of miles from the sea (either one), depending on how you draw your geography.  And though there is nothing definitive, placing Antillus to the east makes PF slightly easier to visualize.

We can only guess at this stuff though, and you are, of course, free to draw your map any way you choose .

My only lingering nitpicks would be Priscelle's comment that Ceres is supposed to be southwestern.  I think there must be some way to draw out the topography so that this is true, but your concerns about kalare are also addressed. Also, I'd still like to get Aquataine out of the south, since it didnt make Jim's list of southern cities.

Right now Im still designing the map's graphical elements, but when I'm done with that, I think we're close to having something I feel good about putting down on paper.  When I do, I'll be sure to give you layout credit 

Actually, Aquitaine is in the middle of the continent, neither north nor south. Think of Maryland in the civil war. This way he is not too far away to provide the support against Kalare the High Lord was talking about in CuF but he's still not part of the South.

Oh, and from Alera Imperia to Kalare is about 3000 miles, that's with Amara flying full out doing it in three days.
So, the map isn't exactly to scale since I'm not sure a ship, even with fury help, could go from Parcia to the capitol like they did in CaF in the time they said they did it.

M

[belgarion]

Just a few more additions:
Black Hills, Ruins of Appia, Labels for the River Tiber and River Gaul.

http://flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/3200561156/


M

[Tsunami]

Ok, some thoughts on the last Map.

I think Attica has to bee farther east.

• The Way its positioned right now, to get to Ceres Kalarus would have had to eiter a) move very close past Attica, or b) cross the Tiber at the Elinarch. Both of wich are highly unlikely.

As i understand it, the Elinarch should be on Ceresian territory.

• The holders Tavi meets, when first riding out to scout out the Canim, were expecting ceresian Legions.

I always pictured the Tiber running North of Ceres. (don't exactly know why, but thats the picture i had in Mind)

Placidian territory needs to reach further south, especially closer to Ceres.

• The Blackhills are at the southernmost end of placidian territory. Plus it only took the placidian Legions one day to get from the edge of placidian territory to Ceres.

What i dont get with the Blackhills, is how Aquitanes Legions cold be the ones to "crush the Legions holding the passes coming down from the Blackhills" as mentioned by Bernhard at the end of CuF.

Now while i write this, i get confused...

By assaulting the western foothills of Parcia, and diverting the Gaul to the Floodplain, One of K.'s legions managed to take control of the Blackhill Passes.(See CuF) Meaning that the Blackhills need to be near Parcia. That in addition would mean that Placidian territory needs to reach as far south as well, since the Blackhills are at the southern tip of Placidian territory.

Somehow the whole sections about the troop movements are kind of confusing to me. My main problem being that we don't have any hints as to where Attica actually is. Is it south or north of Parcia... The whole thing gets simpler if its south of Parcia, but that doesn't make sense in several other instances.

Ok, now my head hurts... i'll have to think all this over again. Hope i'm not to confusing to anyone else *g*

[Priscellie]

Yeah, I'm convinced that the Blackhills are another Jim-slipup.  Or maybe we can just say that there are two ranges with that name.  It's not like we Earthlings don't reuse names for geography.  I live in New York, after all.