A Map (cont'd) Spoilers Spoilers Spoilers

[Tsunami]

So here is what just came to mind when i looked at the maps.

Why is that the Tiber is always running through Alera Imperia? In CaF they have to sail to the Gaul to get to the capital. If the Tiber ran past there, why would they do that, they could just have gone up the Tiber, without the detour.

Keep up the good work. :-)

[Spyndel]

I was also wondering if there had been any community updates since Princep's Fury.

Im interested in doing a high end fully illustrated Alera map based on belgarion's and other's consensus here, but was thinking an update might be in order after the new book.  I do this sort of thing professionally, and am no slouch at it, but I would want the most up to date consensus before doing something like that.


One thing I was wondering...In Princep's Fury, since it was revealed

(click to show/hide)

Doroga was "respected" by the Icemen, enough to mediate between the two races..

.doesn't it seem likely that the Iceman Lands and the Marat territory are actually connected in some way that would allow for independent contact of the two peoples? 


Current map thinking has the two lands separated by water, and we know Marat aren't moving freely through Aleran lands.  Sailing technology seems out of character for the Marat.  It sounds like maybe the two territories would actually be close enough for the Marat and the Icemen to have possibly had the kind of interaction necessary for

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Doroga to develop that kind of reputation with them.

[belgarion]

Hi,

I haven't had a chance to do a Princep's Fury map yet. Sometime this week I'll probably have some time. My family will be away next weekend and I'll be free and have some peace and quiet to concentrate.  I've been helping another author with her new book(s).
 Usually, I throw a tentative black and white line drawing map out and everyone chimes in. Please feel free to throw a PF map out here and we'll all jump in. Once we more or less have a tentative agreement on a map, we start to make it look good. Up to now we really haven't totally finished with the maps since the series is not completed. It would be great if your a map professional and you can make a handsome map or maps for the series. Lots of readers look at the map thread(s) and download the maps for reference.  If you want to shoot a PF map or better looking maps as replacements for the others , I'll put them up on Flicker for everyone to download.  I don't mind maintaining that space until the maps are finalized and we can find space on Jims'  site somewhere.


Concerning your question about the Icement and the Marat. I suppose the Sea of Ice could be an inland sea but I've never gotten that impression. I'm not so sure that the Marat don't have aquatic transport, since Kitai didn't get sick on the voyages like Tavi did. That doesn't prove or disprove anything, just a thought. Sorry about the double negatives. And yep, Kitai did use ropes made of Icemen hair. It's never been said whether they were acquired in trade or otherwise.

Mikey

[Priscellie]

Well, Princeps' Fury makes it fairly clear that Ceres is southeast southwest of Alera Imperia.  Jim even lists it among the southern cities here.  We might also have to move Aquitaine a little more northerly, as that doesn't make the list.

I swear, I'm going to make Jim scrawl a map of Alera on the back of a napkin next time I see him.  Come on, man!  We want an official map!

[Spyndel]

Concerning your question about the Icement and the Marat. I suppose the Sea of Ice could be an inland sea but I've never gotten that impression. I'm not so sure that the Marat don't have aquatic transport, since Kitai didn't get sick on the voyages like Tavi did. That doesn't prove or disprove anything, just a thought. Sorry about the double negatives. And yep, Kitai did use ropes made of Icemen hair. It's never been said whether they were acquired in trade or otherwise.

Mikey

Well, it involves assumptions in any direction you go.  But there is more *evidence* for some things, rather than others.

1) There is mounting evidence that the Icemen and the Marat have access to each other and interact independently of Alera.  Kitai uses Iceman hair ropes, and Doroga is

(click to show/hide)

evidently known and 'respected" by the Icemen.

(I know its a spoiler forum, but the book's only been out a few weeks, so I'm just erring on the side of caution.)

2) Marat do *not* travel through Aleran lands...they certainly don't go over the Shieldwall.  Prior to Second Calderon, there is no Marat/Aleran trade.  Even if there were, there is certainly no Aleran/Icemen trade.  Indirect trade/interaction therefore seems unlikely.

3) There is no *evidence* the Marat are a seafaring people.  The only thing Kitai's lack of mentioned seasickness can really give reasonable evidence towards is the fact that Kitai continues to be "awesome".

In fact, speaking entirely speculatively, the Marat seem created in the nomadic plains-dweller mold, inseparable from their companion animals who present a number of problems for extended sea travel, *especially* in the case of Gargants. However Doroga got to

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the Iceman lands in PF with Walker

, it seems somewhat *unlikely* it was on a boat.  Given the general attitude towards Marat in Alera, the state of the border, some of the specific hostile attitudes demonstrated in PF, in particular Raucus' attitude even up to  defiance of the crown, it seems *unlikely* that Doroga

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went over the Shield Wall to get to his appearance in PF.

The Icemen could be seafarers, but there is no *evidence* for that.  Indeed, the fact that they seem to need to go over the shieldwall to assault the Alerans suggests they cannot or will not travel by sea.

In either case, open water travel in Carna is shown to be an extraordinarily dangerous affair, and by arrogant Human standards, both the Icemen and the Marat *seem* to be towards the primitive end of the spectrum.  Again, this is pure subjectivity...there is no evidence one way or the other.


So, even if your first impression of the Sea of Ice wasn't such, there *Is* some evidence leaning towards a  land connection between the "plains beyond Calderon" (Marat Territory), and the Icemen territory, most likely at the polar region. Since Calderon is clearly described as an Isthmus, or being beyond an isthmus, water must be on both sides, and an inland or landlocked sea is the only way to explain the northern water mass, that I can think of, if the northern watermass is indeed the "Sea of Ice" (which would tend to make sense).  Making it an inland sea requires us to change our thinking a bit, but it then allows for several possibilities and interpretations of what we know so far without invalidating anything else, whereas no land connection tends to only leave us the option of believing a seafaring interaction that no evidence has been given for.


Also, because of the nature of the events in PF, I'm tempted to switch the position of Antillus and Phrygia, to make Antillus the region closest to the Icemen AND the Marat and make some things easier to visualize, unless your superior knowledge on the subject can point out why this shouldnt be the case.  I havent put a fraction of the effort and thought into this that you have, and I was frustrated to find when I wanted to do a map, there was no  official layout.

[Tsunami]

3) There is no *evidence* the Marat are a seafaring people.  The only thing Kitai's lack of mentioned seasickness can really give reasonable evidence towards is the fact that Kitai continues to be "awesome".

Plus, in CaF, when they board the Slive for the first time, Kitai says "I have never been on a ship". Ok, neither has Tavi at this point, but the fact that Kitai ist the one to mention it might mean something.

There is no clear information about it. Although Jim's Description of Carna/Alera seems to point towards open water.

The continent next door is linked to the one Alera is on via a land bridge which is where you find the Calderon Valley--

However, i like to imagine the Sea of Ice as an Inland Sea.

[Spyndel]

OK, I did some rough sketches trying to work out the "problem area", and they show, what I believe are the three options to reconcile the inconclusive things so far about Marat /Icemen interaction, as detailed in my previous post here, as well as some random things I was curious about in this region.  Bear in mind its just a rough idea of the landmasses involved for me to look at, not nearly as accurate as what Belgarion has done.

Sketch 1:

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/8735/roughsketch1sy2.jpg

 This is more or less the accepted  vision so far with regard to Icemen/Marat connectivity, with two open bodies of water on either side of the isthmus.  I just took my cues from Belgarion's current map.  It's  sound in regards to the map clues we have so far and the easiest to visualize, but it's unsatisfying conceptually because it doesn't leave us much beyond the notion of seafaring Marat to explain the evidence for Marat/Icemen interaction.

 In addition to the various issues with this concept detailed here, it also calls into question the nature of the "Sea of Ice".  Is that name whimsical, or does it have a more literal basis?  Even if the marat were seafarers , could one actually sail across the "Sea of Ice"?   

In addition, there were a few other issues I wondered about that I marked on the sketch:

A.)

Also, there is a line in FoC where Amara flies over the Sea of   Ice to get to the Calderon Valley from in-country. That's part of the reason that the Valley's shape looks like it is

I was unable to find this reference in FoC, but I don't doubt Belgarion's knowledge on the subject in any way, and I defer to him.  If this is true though, even by Belgarion's current map, she really only could have flown over the Sea of Ice to Calderon if she was in the northernmost reaches of Alera.  I don't know what "In country" means, but I didnt get the impression she was in the north of the region.  If this is going to be a hard and fast stipulation, and we know for certain the northern watermass is the "Sea of Ice", then the isthmus/landbridge to the Marat landmass must be moved way, way down on the continental map, in order to stretch the Sea of Ice far enough across the west of the region that she could realistically fly over it.


B.) Many of the current maps seem to be placing Calderon right on the isthmus/landbridge to the Marat landmass, but in FOC, Amara describes the valley as being *beyond* the  isthmus, into the new territoy itself...more of a frontier.  This was one of the things I liked about Amadeus_rex's Calderon map, and followed suit here.

C.) Is there any issue with me switching the position of Phyridgia and Antillus?  It would make certain things in PF easier to visualize if Antillus is the Shieldwall realm closest to both the Icemen AND the Marat...however the Marat and the Icemen manage to interact.

Sketch 2:


http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2350/roughsketch2mo5.jpg

This is the most reasonable conceptual compromise based on what we know so far...some sort of land connection , probably near the polar region. This provides an option for a plausible means of Marat /Icemen interaction and avenue of travel for Doroga, without requiring us to believe  one thing or another, until Jim let's us in on some more details.

This has the result of making  the Sea of Ice an inland sea, which isnt a stretch at all. I mean, the entire Mediterranean is actually a landlocked sea with a number of isthmuses (is that the correct plural?) that, from the point of view of the inhabitants are connected only via that landbridge, canal, etc.

The continent next door is linked to the one Alera is on via a land bridge which is where you find the Calderon Valley--

This quote, while easiest to interpret as an open sea scenario, does not *expressly forbid* a northern land connection, as the word "only" appears no where in the sentence.  Of course, now we're into semantics. The truth of the matter is, I think it might be a case of a little bit of fuzzy thinking or incomplete explanation from the author.  Or at least, I *hope* it is , because I find the alternatives (

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the marat and their animals are seafarers and get their Icemen hair ropes and Doroga's reputation from naval trade/warfare across the sea of Ice, Doroga sailed with a giant Gargant on a boat to get to the Negotiations, or traveled through Alera unmolested, and was allowed, assisted over the shield wall by a xenophobic and defiant Rauccus

) conceptually unsatisfying.

Sketch 3:


http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/2964/roughsketch3jn8.jpg

All sketch 3 really shows is a sort of contrived way to make sure all the pieces fit and adhere to the "letter of the law" in our current clues, and still provide a land connection.  It basically shows a little strip  of land walled off by mountain along the landbridge that the Marat and Icemen could conceivably interact  on, while still keeping Calderon and Alera walled off, and keeping the sea open.

No, I don't like it either, but it was really just a mental exercise to see if it was possible.


Anyways, any correction or comments about  my  thinking would be welcome.  I don't really *want* to be doing this...my limited time and brainpower would be better put towards illustrating the map, but these are just some sticking points for me.  Im really hoping Belgarion puts together a post -PF map that I can just glom onto.  I dont even want to try and decode the placement for all the southern regions.  In the meantime, Im just working on the decorative map backround and graphical elements.

[P.S.  I hope posting the images is cool. I used the img code and it seemed to be activated, so I figured it was ok. Its externally hosted, so there shouldn't be bandwidth issues as I understand it, but if this is a problem, just let me know and Ill edit them to links only]

 

[belgarion]

Hi,
<<I was unable to find this reference in FoC, but I don't doubt Belgarion's knowledge on the subject in any way, and I defer to him.  If this is true though, even by Belgarion's current map, she really only could have flown over the Sea of Ice to Calderon if she was in the northernmost reaches of Alera.  I don't know what "In country" means, but I didnt get the impression she was in the north of the region.  If this is going to be a hard and fast stipulation, and we know for certain the northern watermass is the "Sea of Ice", then the isthmus/landbridge to the Marat landmass must be moved way, way down on the continental map, in order to stretch the Sea of Ice far enough across the west of the region that she could realistically fly over it.>>

The passage is in AF. Sorry. Brain was fuzzy. Look at page  30  in the AF paperback (the beginning of chapter 3).
Originally we had Alera Imperia further north where it made sense for her to fly over the SOI to get to the valley. Now that Imperia was
moved further south, you're probably right about moving the landbridge south, except than we'd have to move Riva further south as well since Calderon is officially part of Riva. That changes the dynamics of the eastern coast somewhat.

<<Also, because of the nature of the events in PF, I'm tempted to switch the position of Antillus and Phrygia, to make Antillus the region closest to the Icemen AND the Marat and make some things easier to visualize, unless your superior knowledge on the subject can point out why this shouldnt be the case.  I havent put a fraction of the effort and thought into this that you have, and I was frustrated to find when I wanted to do a map, there was no  official layout.>>

No problem switching these two high lords. I actually don't remember the reason we put them in the current order.
Here's a modified map:
http://flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/3194945097/            Map of Alera BW 01/13/09

If anyone else remembers why they are in that order please jump in.




I'm re-reading PF and will work on a  PF map at the finish of the re-read.

Mikey

[Priscellie]

Is there any issue with me switching the position of Phyridgia and Antillus?  It would make certain things in PF easier to visualize if Antillus is the Shieldwall realm closest to both the Icemen AND the Marat...however the Marat and the Icemen manage to interact.

I went through the books, looking for mentions of both cities (REALLY annoying in the later books, considering the number of characters named Antillus. ), and I found details that lent weight to both sides of the argument, but I think your point is the most compelling evidence we've seen for the relative locations of both cities. 

Favoring Phrygia West of Antillus:

It might make sense for Phrygia to border Riva, as that's where Bernard's legion was sent during his tour.  Of course, that doesn't have to mean anything.  The Rivan legions could be sent anywhere.  Doesn't have to be a neighboring land.

"Younger sister," Bernard said. "She and Isana were real close. I was off on my first tour with the Rivan Legions. We were way up by the Shieldwall, working with Phrygias troops against the icemen. Our parents had died a few years before, and when Isana went into service in the Legion camps, Alia went with her."

Favoring Antillus West of Phrygia:

Both the Phrygians and the Ceresians are violently anti-slavery, and geographic proximity might contribute to that.  And if Phrygia is closer to Ceres, it might explain why there's something of an abundance of them at the Elinarch, even though the Elinarch is to the extreme south of Ceres.

  Max pursed his lips, then shrugged. "Wasn't me. There are a lot of Phrygians hereabouts. They hate slavers. Crows, plenty of folk do. I hear that Ceres has a whole big gang of men in masks who roam around at night and hang any slaver they can get their hands on. They have to employ a whole army of personal guards to stay safe. Gotta love a town like Ceres."

And this could go either way, but I figured it was relevant:

"So I'm Ehren," Max said, "with an unknown number of unknowns following me. Where do I go?" Max frowned. "Wait. What the crows am I doing all the way out here in the first place? I thought Ehren got sent to Phrygia."
"Did you notice that he packed those peppermints he kept around?" Tavi asked.
"Yes. I thought he liked peppermints."
"No. He gets seasick."
Max frowned. "But Phrygia's thousands of miles from the sea and—oh."

[P.S.  I hope posting the images is cool. I used the img code and it seemed to be activated, so I figured it was ok. Its externally hosted, so there shouldn't be bandwidth issues as I understand it, but if this is a problem, just let me know and Ill edit them to links only]

Definitely cool!  I prefer it this way.

[Spyndel]

Both the Phrygians and the Ceresians are violently anti-slavery, and geographic proximity might contribute to that.  And if Phrygia is closer to Ceres, it might explain why there's something of an abundance of them at the Elinarch, even though the Elinarch is to the extreme south of Ceres.

That's true of the existing map, but doesn't that need to be examined in light of what you said here:

Well, Princeps' Fury makes it fairly clear that Ceres is the the southeast of Alera Imperia.  Jim even lists it among the southern cities here.  We might also have to move Aquitaine a little more northerly, as that doesn't make the list.

Theres very few ways I can envision to make Phrydgia and Ceres adjacent if that is true, and still satisfy all the other juggling that has to be done in that area, but I haven't sat down and tried to work it out on paper yet.

Also, if Ceres in in the Southeast, it screws all that up...not to mention confusing the entire issue of the Canim continent, since that's where they approach from.

[Priscellie]

That's true of the existing map, but doesn't that need to be examined in light of what you said here:

If Ceres in in the Southeast, it screws all that up...not to mention confusing the entire issue of the Canim continent, since that's where they approach from.

Actually, it works in the Alternate Map one of the other board members proposed.  That's where Ceres and Kalare are with respect to Alera Imperia, in my mind.  Bump Phrygia Placida a bit more to the east, swap the positions of Antillus and Phrygia, and Ceres and Phrygia share influence on that entire body of land.  And anyway, just because two peoples are anti-slavery, it's not proof they actually do share geography!  It was just something to think about.

As for the Canim continent, just shift it south a bit.  It doesn't have to be on the same "level" as Carna.  Maybe the nearest northernmost part is level with lower Ceres/upper Kalare/the Elinarch.  I can doodle a picture of what I mean if this isn't clear, but I have to get to work now!

[Spyndel]

Furthermore, if Ceres in in the Southeast, and coastal,  I don't see how the Elinarch can be in the southern portion of it, as Cyril talks about moving west to the Elinarch in CuF, and how the Elinarch is on the only bridge on the entire *western leg* of the Tiber.

Unless those remarks are all relative, and not absolute.

*Sigh*, I give up.  Somebody just make a map, and I'll paint it.

[Priscellie]

Furthermore, if Ceres in in the Southeast, and coastal,  I don't see how the Elinarch can be in the southern portion of it, as Cyril talks about moving west to the Elinarch in CuF, and how the Elinarch is on the only bridge on the entire *western leg* of the Tiber.

Unless those remarks are all relative, and not absolute.

*Sigh*, I give up.  Somebody just make a map, and I'll paint it.

Who ever said Ceres was in the east, much less coastal?  All evidence puts Ceres in the west, just north of Kalare.


And whoops, in the message I posted earlier this morning, I accidentally wrote Phrygia instead of Placida in one spot.  Now correcting...


Edit: OH.  That idiot was ME.  I meant that PF makes it clear Ceres is southwest of Alera Imperia.  Yes, I have no concept of basic directions.

[belgarion]

Tentative Princeps Fury Map of Cannea:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/3196245651/


Mikey

[Spyndel]

Edit: OH.  That idiot was ME.  I meant that PF makes it clear Ceres is southwest of Alera Imperia.  Yes, I have no concept of basic directions.

Oh, yes, that makes things much easier to put together.  I was really choking on your *southeast* comment, trying to make that fit.  And there's no idiocy involved here...I cant believe how much work you've all put into deciphering all these clues already.  That you keep anything straight after all this is impressive.

I do, however, remember reading another comment in this thread that suggested  Ceres was coastal, and not inland, though I dont know if that's valid or not, nor do i remember what the reasoning for it was.


[Edit]One further note though, if we take this quote to heart:

Max frowned. "But Phrygia's thousands of miles from the sea and—oh."

...then whether we place Phrygia East or West, we'll have to significantly alter the current shape of the land in order to bury Phrygia (and hence, a significant part of the shieldwall as well) that far inland.    I dont know if there are any regions left we can faithfully buffer between Phrigia and the coast, if Ceres is now in the southwest, except maybe Placida....we may need to buffer it with some mountain ranges.

Truth be told, I dont even know how thats possible for Phrygia to be that far from the sea, without fundamentally changing the way we're envisioning the shield wall.  Maybe the "shieldwall" is only  the shield wall for a certain extent inland, and doesnt stretch from coast to coast.  Maybe its buried between two natural impassable mountain ranges.  Because with our current philosophy, if there are only two shield wall cities, then east or west, both of those cities will be adjacent to water.