If the Denarians are trapped in Demonreach...

[groinkick]

No, the job of the Knights is explicitly to save the Denarians--stopping them from hurting people is what they do when they fail to save them.

No.....  If this were the case killing them would not be an option, and it is.  Michael wasn't out there searching for Denarian's to save.  He went out there by TWG's directive and fought baddies of all kinds.  When he faced Denarian's he gave them the option to repent.

If the job of the Knight was to save the Denarian's he would have been out a lot more trying to save them when in fact the majority of the time he wasn't even fighting them but other things. Outsiders, vampires, demon's, ghosts, and a Dragon are just some examples of his missions.

Also, they picked up the coin by their own choices, so we know that "they made a choice" is not necessarily going to release the Knights from their responsibility to help them.

Again, they don't seek them out to help them.  I don't recall a single time that a Knight's only objective was to locate a Denarian for the sole purpose of saving them.  In every case I can remember it was because the Denarian was doing something bad, and the Knight showed up to #1 stop them from doing it, #2 save the person if possible.  The first objective has always been to stop the Denarian.

I see no reason why they would show up to rescue a Denarian from Demonreach if they screwed up bad enough to end up there.  Unless the person repented, and TWG knew it and wanted them to remove the Coin from the prisoner.  Other than that a Knight isn't going to care if the Denarian is locked up.

[groinkick]

I agree more or less with your points except the last one, because it is hinted at that there are beings and or monsters just as powerful locked away on Demonreach..  Harry may be mistaken
but he seems to feel that the artifacts are safe locked away on Demonreach..  He wouldn'd do that if he thought a Fallen Archangel could get to them..  Then again the artifacts though powerful are not possessed by a fallen angel, that might make a difference, or not depending on where the coins were deposited.

I don't believe there is anything locked up even remotely as powerful as an Archangel.  A dark god for example is what Cowl would have become from a Darkhollow.  That's nothing compared to an Archangel. 

So if the Coins are supposed to be in circulation as Jim has said, I'm thinking that keeping them out of Demonreach isn't a big deal.  There does seem to be a set of real rules in place that even the Archangels need to follow.  I'm not saying that a Denarian could escape Demonreach.  I'm saying that Lucifer would keep them out, or get them out (the Coin, not the person holding it).

TWG is THE power in the stories.  Jim flat out said that TWG put a wall between the Outsiders and Earth realm and put the rules in place that only mortals using free will can let them in.  That means He is above them in power.  If not He couldn't stop them.  So in my opinion TWG, and Archangel's are on just another cosmic scale than anything else in the story

[Mira]

I don't believe there is anything locked up even remotely as powerful as an Archangel.  A dark god for example is what Cowl would have become from a Darkhollow.  That's nothing compared to an Archangel. 

  I'm not so sure about that...  But we can agree to disagree..

[nadia.skylark]

No.....  If this were the case killing them would not be an option, and it is.  Michael wasn't out there searching for Denarian's to save.  He went out there by TWG's directive and fought baddies of all kinds.  When he faced Denarian's he gave them the option to repent.

If the job of the Knight was to save the Denarian's he would have been out a lot more trying to save them when in fact the majority of the time he wasn't even fighting them but other things. Outsiders, vampires, demon's, ghosts, and a Dragon are just some examples of his missions.


Again, they don't seek them out to help them.  I don't recall a single time that a Knight's only objective was to locate a Denarian for the sole purpose of saving them.  In every case I can remember it was because the Denarian was doing something bad, and the Knight showed up to #1 stop them from doing it, #2 save the person if possible.  The first objective has always been to stop the Denarian.

Um...no, actually, you're wrong. Michael says so.

Small Favor:

Michael shook his head. "Brother, you forget our purpose. We are not given our power so that we can strike down our enemies, no matter how much they might deserve it. Our purpose is to rescue the poor souls trapped by the Fallen." 

[Avernite]

Um...no, actually, you're wrong. Michael says so.

Small Favor:

Michael says so, Sanya doesn't seem to be entirely in agreement. Who do we trust?

[nadia.skylark]

Michael says so, Sanya doesn't seem to be entirely in agreement. Who do we trust?

You'll also note that Sanya does not act contrary to what Michael says, even if he occasionally needs Michael reminding him what their jobs actually are.

I'd feel differently if I ever saw Sanya not saving Denarians and instead killing them (outside a pitched battle. Once the fighting starts, the Knights seem to have more leeway).

[morriswalters]

The Knight's job is to balance the coins and their holders.  If the Denarians act then so must the Knight's.  The Rescue Rangers get a ding a ling and there they go.   They can use the Swords to battle any number of other evils as long as that purpose isn't selfish.  So the Swords can go to Chichen Itza, but the Swords don't exist to pull Harry's chestnuts from the fire. It appears to be sufficient to say that if the Denarian's kill thousands then the Swords can save other thousands to balance the scales.  If you happen to take a head or three, well good.

Now Jim may want to put the coins on the island. /Shrug/ However given that no one knows what type of magic created it, putting the coins there would seem to me to be a lot like storing dynamite in a nuclear waste facility.  Why would you take the risk?

[Mira]

The Knight's job is to balance the coins and their holders.  If the Denarians act then so must the Knight's.  The Rescue Rangers get a ding a ling and there they go.   They can use the Swords to battle any number of other evils as long as that purpose isn't selfish.  So the Swords can go to Chichen Itza, but the Swords don't exist to pull Harry's chestnuts from the fire. It appears to be sufficient to say that if the Denarian's kill thousands then the Swords can save other thousands to balance the scales.  If you happen to take a head or three, well good.

However they won't parachute in half a world away to stop a massacre if Denarians aren't involved.
It is all about balance, bad stuff happens, the Knights are not here to stop all of it..  The thing with the Denarians is they often put their thumb on the scale and upset the balance..

[morriswalters]

However they won't parachute in half a world away to stop a massacre if Denarians aren't involved.
It is all about balance, bad stuff happens, the Knights are not here to stop all of it..  The thing with the Denarians is they often put their thumb on the scale and upset the balance..

Yes.

[Cozarkian]

I'm not saying that a Denarian could escape Demonreach.  I'm saying that Lucifer would keep them out, or get them out (the Coin, not the person holding it).

Or the coin would just abandon it's holder and escape before the holder was imprisoned.

[nadia.skylark]

Or the coin would just abandon it's holder and escape before the holder was imprisoned.

Can they do that? Given the importance of free will, I would think that the holder would have to choose to release the coin for that to happen.

[Cozarkian]

Can they do that? Given the importance of free will, I would think that the holder would have to choose to release the coin for that to happen.

The importance of free will is the moral choice. A coin holder has to abandon the coin as a condition of repenting. That doesn't mean failing to repent is a guarantee you get to keep the coin.

[nadia.skylark]

The importance of free will is the moral choice. A coin holder has to abandon the coin as a condition of repenting. That doesn't mean failing to repent is a guarantee you get to keep the coin.

I'm not sure about that. I'm pretty sure that free will is about more than just moral choices--in the books it's stated to be a separate thing that only mortals have. Also, given that we've never seen anyone lose a coin who didn't either choose to give it up or die first, I don't think we can just assume that the coins have One Ring-like powers of escaping their hosts whenever it's convenient. Otherwise, they'd be forever falling out of people's pockets when people tried to contain them, and we've seen that they don't do that.

[Avernite]

I'm not sure about that. I'm pretty sure that free will is about more than just moral choices--in the books it's stated to be a separate thing that only mortals have. Also, given that we've never seen anyone lose a coin who didn't either choose to give it up or die first, I don't think we can just assume that the coins have One Ring-like powers of escaping their hosts whenever it's convenient. Otherwise, they'd be forever falling out of people's pockets when people tried to contain them, and we've seen that they don't do that.

Crassus lost his coin, granted he lost it due to free-willed mortals so you could dodge into that corner, but he absolutely lost it without dying.

[peregrine]

Crassus didn't lose the coin, he gave it up, like the post says.