If the Denarians are trapped in Demonreach...

[Mira]

I am under the impression that the Knights' job is to "rescue the poor souls trapped by the Fallen" in Michael's words. I also believe that their secondary purpose is to protect the innocent as directed to by TWG, as evidenced by the many times we see them do that.

No, it is not, they do protect the innocent when they can and when it coincides with what their mission.   That is why they walked away after Cassius gave up his coin even though Harry argued he was still a murderous bastard with Cassius gleefully agreeing that he was until Harry took a baseball bat to him.. That is why Murphy told Harry she could never be a Knight save for the one Knight she was one... Using her own judgement she couldn't let the Denarians just walk away after they had given up a coin and surrendered... She judged, not the Almighty, that is why she broke the Sword when she tried to kill Nic with is after he gave up his goodies.

[nadia.skylark]

No, it is not, they do protect the innocent when they can and when it coincides with what their mission.   That is why they walked away after Cassius gave up his coin even though Harry argued he was still a murderous bastard with Cassius gleefully agreeing that he was until Harry took a baseball bat to him.. That is why Murphy told Harry she could never be a Knight save for the one Knight she was one... Using her own judgement she couldn't let the Denarians just walk away after they had given up a coin and surrendered... She judged, not the Almighty, that is why she broke the Sword when she tried to kill Nic with is after he gave up his goodies.

Did you notice the word "secondary"? I'm not saying that they will do so at the expense of their primary mission, which is saving Denarians. I'm saying that they do protect the innocent in situations unrelated to Denarians, and attempt to protect the innocent from Denarians. This is why Michael helps SI kill a demon and arrest a sorcerer, why Michael works with Harry to stop harmful ghosts, why all three Knights work to stop Nicodemus from unleashing the plague curse, why Shiro rescues Harry from Nicodemus, why all three Knights help to rescue Maggie from the Red Court...I'm sure you get the idea.

[Mira]

Did you notice the word "secondary"? I'm not saying that they will do so at the expense of their primary mission, which is saving Denarians. I'm saying that they do protect the innocent in situations unrelated to Denarians, and attempt to protect the innocent from Denarians. This is why Michael helps SI kill a demon and arrest a sorcerer, why Michael works with Harry to stop harmful ghosts, why all three Knights work to stop Nicodemus from unleashing the plague curse, why Shiro rescues Harry from Nicodemus, why all three Knights help to rescue Maggie from the Red Court...I'm sure you get the idea.

 So  what?   That doesn't mean they lock up coin holding Denarians on Demonreach..  That seems to be the point of the thread..  The answer is they don't....  Do they help sometimes in going after other "enemies" of the Almighty?  Yes, but that still doesn't prove that they lock up Denarians on Demonreach...  Or deposit the coins there, if that were true, they would have handed over the lot the collected when they helped Harry rescue Ivy to Alfred, who failed to come forward... More to the point the Denarians wouldn't have been allowed on Demonreach in the first place after they kidnapped Ivy... Or even more to the point if they knew there were fellow coin holders in lock up, don't you think they would have freed them? 

[nadia.skylark]

So  what?   That doesn't mean they lock up coin holding Denarians on Demonreach..  That seems to be the point of the thread..  The answer is they don't....  Do they help sometimes in going after other "enemies" of the Almighty?  Yes, but that still doesn't prove that they lock up Denarians on Demonreach...  Or deposit the coins there, if that were true, they would have handed over the lot the collected when they helped Harry rescue Ivy to Alfred, who failed to come forward... More to the point the Denarians wouldn't have been allowed on Demonreach in the first place after they kidnapped Ivy... Or even more to the point if they knew there were fellow coin holders in lock up, don't you think they would have freed them?

Sorry. I thought you were responding to my post saying one of their jobs was to protect the innocent.

That said, I think you somewhat misunderstood the topic of this thread. It is not claiming that the Knights lock Denarians up in Demonreach currently; it is proposing a hypothetical where the Warden might lock up Denarians in Demonreach in the future, and wondering if that would be a problem for the Knights. It also contains a detour dealing with why the Knights weren't willing to hat up and rescue Marcone at the beginning of Small Favor, given that it appears to be within their job parameters and it would have saved a lot of trouble.

[Avernite]

Sorry. I thought you were responding to my post saying one of their jobs was to protect the innocent.

That said, I think you somewhat misunderstood the topic of this thread. It is not claiming that the Knights lock Denarians up in Demonreach currently; it is proposing a hypothetical where the Warden might lock up Denarians in Demonreach in the future, and wondering if that would be a problem for the Knights. It also contains a detour dealing with why the Knights weren't willing to hat up and rescue Marcone at the beginning of Small Favor, given that it appears to be within their job parameters and it would have saved a lot of trouble.

So I looked up the relevant passage, and I think Michael is a bit more nuanced than we are discussing, his only SPECIFIC explanation is (SF chapter 15):
"You want to talk to them?" I asked Michael. "You've got to be kidding me."
"I didn't say that," Michael replied. "But I will not set out to simply murder them and have done. It's a solution, Harry. But it isn't good enough."

Seems to me he doesn't reject hunting them so much as the apparent subtext of setting out to kill them.

[Mira]

So I looked up the relevant passage, and I think Michael is a bit more nuanced than we are discussing, his only SPECIFIC explanation is (SF chapter 15):
"You want to talk to them?" I asked Michael. "You've got to be kidding me."
"I didn't say that," Michael replied. "But I will not set out to simply murder them and have done. It's a solution, Harry. But it isn't good enough."

Seems to me he doesn't reject hunting them so much as the apparent subtext of setting out to kill them.

Exactly,  that is the whole point of the Holy Knights, the bit that Murphy couldn't stomach...  They will hunt them but their purpose is NOT to kill them unless there is no alternative... They will fight them into submission, then hopefully they will surrender their coins,  then they let them go to find their way to redemption if they can, or not...  If they don't surrender, the fight goes on until Knight or the other dies, or the Denarian retreats, as Nic did at the end of Skin Game when he realized he couldn't win the fight against the Holy Light Sabor of Butters...  He knows when to retreat, that his how he has survived these past 2,000 years..  If they can pursue, they do, but usually the Knight him or herself is pretty spent and the Denarian lives to fight another day..

[nadia.skylark]

Seems to me he doesn't reject hunting them so much as the apparent subtext of setting out to kill them.

I just don't get why he wouldn't just say something like "I'm glad to help you track them down and rescue Marcone, but I won't just kill them, Harry." It feels like he's refusing to even actively go looking for them prepared to fight. After all, the original context in which Harry asked for his help was for a rescue mission--Harry just got derailed when they worked out that Nicodemus was involved.

[morriswalters]

“They’ve already blown up a building, tried to murder me, and set off a situation that nearly got your own children burned down in the cross fire. In what way has it not come to that?”
Instead of answering, Michael shook his head, took up Amoracchius, and walked further into the house.
I scowled after him for a minute and muttered darkly under my breath.
“You confused him,” Sanya rumbled.
I glanced at the dark-skinned Knight. “What?”
“You confused him,” Sanya repeated. “Because of what you did.”
“What? Lying to the Council? I don’t see that I had much choice.”
“But you did,” Sanya said placidly. He reached into the gym bag on the floor next to him and drew out a long saber, an old cavalry weapon—Esperacchius. A nail worked into the hilt declared it a brother of Michael’s sword. He started inspecting the blade. “You could have simply moved to attack them.”
“By myself? I’m bad, but I’m not that bad.”
“He’s your friend. He would have come with you. You know that.”
I shook my head. “He’s my friend. Period. You don’t do that to your friends.”
“Precisely,” Sanya said. “So instead you have placed your own life in jeopardy in order to protect his beliefs. You risk your body to preserve his heart.” He brought out a smooth sharpening stone and began stropping the saber’s blade. “I suppose he considers it a particularly messianic act.”
“That’s not why I did it,” I said.
“Of course it isn’t. He knows that. It isn’t easy for him. Usually he’s the one protecting another, willing to pay the price if he must.”
I exhaled and glanced after Michael. “I don’t know what else I could have done.”
“Da,” Sanya agreed. “But he is still afraid for you.” He fell quiet for a moment, while his stone slid along the sword’s blade.

[nadia.skylark]

...I'm not sure what you're saying, here.

[morriswalters]

Some tasty quotes from Small Favor, in the Chapel.

“It’s okay to be mad at God about it, son. It ain’t His fault, what happened, but He understands.”

“You gotta think that maybe there’s a matter of balance, here,” he said. “Maybe one archangel invested his strength in this situation overtly and immediately. Maybe another one was just quieter about it. Thinking long-term. Maybe he already gave you a hand.”
My right hand erupted into pins and needles again.
I sucked in a swift breath and rose, spinning around.

“Why?” I demanded. “Why did you want the Denarians stopped? Why send the hobs to kill the Archive? Why recruit me to save the Archive and Marcone in the event that the hobs failed?”
Mab paused, turned, casually showing off the gorgeous curves of her calves, and tilted her head at me. “Nicodemus and his ilk were clearly in violation of my Accords, and obviously planning to abuse them to further his ambition. That was reason enough to see his designs disrupted. And among the Fallen was one with much to answer for to me, personally, for its attack upon my home.”
“The Black Council attack on Arctis Tor,” I said. “One of them used Hellfire.”
Mab showed me her snow-white teeth. “The Watchman and I,” Grimalkin mewled for her, “had a common enemy this day. The enemy could not be allowed to gain the power represented by the child Archive.”
I frowned and thought of the silver hand that had batted the fallen angel and his master sorcerer around as if he’d been a stuffed practice dummy. “Thorned Namshiel.”

[segaily]

Yeah, but he didn't arrange anything to stop her being tortured either, and you would think that it would be part of the Knights' job to interfere with stuff like that.

One additional thing to keep in mind it is always possible TWG allowed this to happen even if normally TWG would have had the Knights prevent it.  The archive has always been neutral.  Ivy now most likely hates the Denarians  and likes Harry even more.  She might now be more likely to do something to oppose the Denarians in the future that would push the boundaries of being neutral.  Allowing her to be taken but making sure she was rescued before taking a coin could have just been using the Denarians plan against them.  The Knights themselves would never do that because they do not know the future but a being who does might see that letting her be taking was the better long term plan.

In fact I think this is likely the answer to the original post too.  If the long term view from TWG is that having them locked up is better because it prevents things TWG does not want to happen then the Knights would be sent to do something other then try to save the people holding the coins.  If that Denarian is not going to be a problem then they probably would be sent to give the holder one more chance to save themselves.  The knights themselves have to always act one way because they have no idea what will happen going forward.  The missions they are given however are based on much more information so to us could seem inconsistent because we do not know the future.

[morriswalters]

One way to look at it is to think as the Knight's as a counter weight to the Denarians. For the Knights to exist the Denarians must exist and vice versa.  Both the Knights and the Denarians have free will. 

TWG can act only in opposition to the force of his counter.  Guiding the Knights to the Denarians when they act against innocents is different than acting to save someone who is paying for the exercise of free will.  The difference for Marcone and Ivy is that they chose to act with their free will.  And as such they are victims to their choices.  TWG can't interfere.  On the other hand when an Archangel for one side acted he/she was met by the opposing archangel.  Mab isn't limited in that respect, so she chose to either kill the Archive or failing that, to save both Marcone and Ivy.

[groinkick]

...would the KotC try to break them out? I've heard a theory that the way to trap the Coins in Demonreach is to trap their bearers with them, thus subverting the "meant to be in circulation" issue--they are in circulation, it's just that their hosts can't do anything. The problem with this is that a coinbearer trapped in stasis on Demonreach couldn't repent (I don't think), so it seems like something the Knights would have a problem with.

No, for a couple reasons:
1.  The Knight's themselves have attempted to lock the Coin's away from people.
2.  The Knights don't seek out Coin holders to save them.  They show up to stop them, and then attempt to get them to repent before fighting them.  If one of them got locked up on Demonreach they got there by their own Choices. 

The Coin wouldn't be locked up there anyways.  The power of a Fallen Archangel would guarantee that didn't happen.

[Mira]

No, for a couple reasons:
1.  The Knight's themselves have attempted to lock the Coin's away from people.
2.  The Knights don't seek out Coin holders to save them.  They show up to stop them, and then attempt to get them to repent before fighting them.  If one of them got locked up on Demonreach they got there by their own Choices. 

The Coin wouldn't be locked up there anyways.  The power of a Fallen Archangel would guarantee that didn't happen.

I agree more or less with your points except the last one, because it is hinted at that there are beings and or monsters just as powerful locked away on Demonreach..  Harry may be mistaken
but he seems to feel that the artifacts are safe locked away on Demonreach..  He wouldn'd do that if he thought a Fallen Archangel could get to them..  Then again the artifacts though powerful are not possessed by a fallen angel, that might make a difference, or not depending on where the coins were deposited.

[nadia.skylark]

The difference for Marcone and Ivy is that they chose to act with their free will.  And as such they are victims to their choices.  TWG can't interfere.

How did Marcone and Ivy choose to act with their free will in any way that is meaningfully different than the actions that every person with free will takes?

Also, free will doesn't make it impossible for TWG to interfere, it just makes Him have to be more circumspect. For example, when Michael leaves his kids alone in the house in Grave Peril, he is making the free-willed choice to do so. This does not prevent Father Forthill's car from "coincidentally" breaking down nearby so that there will be someone to watch over Michael's kids.

No, for a couple reasons:
1.  The Knight's themselves have attempted to lock the Coin's away from people.

The coins, yes. The coin holders, no. That's the part that I think might be a problem.

2.  The Knights don't seek out Coin holders to save them.  They show up to stop them, and then attempt to get them to repent before fighting them.  If one of them got locked up on Demonreach they got there by their own Choices.

No, the job of the Knights is explicitly to save the Denarians--stopping them from hurting people is what they do when they fail to save them.

Also, they picked up the coin by their own choices, so we know that "they made a choice" is not necessarily going to release the Knights from their responsibility to help them.