If the Denarians are trapped in Demonreach...

[peregrine]

Though (and again, this is taking Nic at his word) they get MOST of their coins back via corruption in the Church, but not all.  We don't know how the other ones get out, it's possible that, like their ability to roll a bit on their own, to encourage people to pick a coin up, they might be able to somehow move themselves.  Otherwise dropping it in a box, covering the box with concrete and anti-summoning magic, and then tossing it in the ocean would be enough.

It also occurs to me that DemonReach is not a perfect prison.  Energy can leak out, the prisoners are at least somewhat aware and somewhat able to reach out of their cells, since they can communicate.  A coin in DR plus a prisoner of DR could lead to some very bad things.  Like taking advantage of the security of a max security prison by also using it to store nuclear weapons.

[morriswalters]

Everyone who keeps suggesting putting the coins in Demonreach should answer the question, where did Merlin get the advanced magic needed to build the prison?


Nobody realizes that the Archive was the target until after the Shedd was closed in the magic circle. And nobody knew there were at least thirteen Denarian's in town.  With two notable exceptions.  Mab and Uriel.  And they weren't talking for whatever reasons.  Can you see why Michael wasn't instructed by TWG to attack?

Nobody forgot Marcone.  He was the key which started the game clock. 

Without Harry's help the Knight's didn't have a chance in hell of doing anything, they aren't suicidal.  See where there were 13 Denarian's in town.

Michael's suspicion of Harry was from Harry acting out of character in not using fire spells. 

Marcone was bait and a payoff to Titania.
 
The Archive was the target and as such Uriel was on the playing field in the Shedd.

The rules of the game kept Michael out of the Shedd, had he been there the Denarian's wouldn't have been. 

Everything played out in the way you would expect.  The Hobs were the first cutout, designed to kill Ivy, the second cutout was Uriel in the Shedd to help Harry if things went sideways.  With all the pieces in place the assault happened in the safest place, on Demonreach Island where all the participants could go all out.

[nadia.skylark]

Nobody realizes that the Archive was the target until after the Shedd was closed in the magic circle. And nobody knew there were at least thirteen Denarian's in town.  With two notable exceptions.  Mab and Uriel.  And they weren't talking for whatever reasons.  Can you see why Michael wasn't instructed by TWG to attack?

No. Not unless TWG wanted Ivy to be tortured, because if Michael had been proactive when Harry asked him to, then Ivy would never have even been in Chicago.

Nobody forgot Marcone.  He was the key which started the game clock.

If nobody forgot him, then why was the fact that he was being tortured not brought up as an argument for why Michael and Sanya should hunt down the Denarians in town?

Without Harry's help the Knight's didn't have a chance in hell of doing anything, they aren't suicidal.  See where there were 13 Denarian's in town.

They would have had Harry's help. Harry was the one asking for their help in the first place!

Michael's suspicion of Harry was from Harry acting out of character in not using fire spells.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I remember it, between the time Mab took away Harry's blasting rod and the time Harry asked Michael to hat up and go Denarian hunting, there had been no reason for Harry to use fire magic around Michael because all Harry had done in Michael's presence was drive up to his house and talk to him in his kitchen.

Marcone was bait

Yes.

and a payoff to Titania.

What? Why does Titania care about Marcone?

The Archive was the target and as such Uriel was on the playing field in the Shedd.

Yes.

The rules of the game kept Michael out of the Shedd, had he been there the Denarian's wouldn't have been. 

I'm not talking about the Shedd; I'm talking about before Harry even calls the White Council over the Accords breach.

Everything played out in the way you would expect.  The Hobs were the first cutout, designed to kill Ivy, the second cutout was Uriel in the Shedd to help Harry if things went sideways.  With all the pieces in place the assault happened in the safest place, on Demonreach Island where all the participants could go all out.

But why couldn't everyone have tried to find the Denarians at Demonreach before Ivy was kidnapped?

[morriswalters]

No. Not unless TWG wanted Ivy to be tortured, because if Michael had been proactive when Harry asked him to, then Ivy would never have even been in Chicago.

Michael's first appearance in the book is after Titania's hitters attack Harry at Michael's house. The Denarian's don't show up until Harry finds Gard at the safe house.  At that point no one knows were the Denarian's are.  Contact is made through Ivy after the Accords protocol is invoked.

If nobody forgot him, then why was the fact that he was being tortured not brought up as an argument for why Michael and Sanya should hunt down the Denarians in town?

At that point there is nobody to search for other than Marcone. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I remember it, between the time Mab took away Harry's blasting rod and the time Harry asked Michael to hat up and go Denarian hunting, there had been no reason for Harry to use fire magic around Michael because all Harry had done in Michael's presence was drive up to his house and talk to him in his kitchen.

Michael's suspicions come into play after the events at the Shedd.  Nic uses them to play on Harry's mind.  And Harry did not use fire magic at the Train Station while with Michael.

What? Why does Titania care about Marcone?

Read the book.  Had you, you would know that she did.

“When one Court moves, the other perforce moves with it,” Mab said.
I croaked, “Titania wants Marcone dead?”
“Put simply,” she replied. “And her Emissary will continue to seek your death. Only by finding and saving the Baron’s life will you preserve your own.”

The why is speculative.  She hates Harry. The most obvious reason might be that she took revenge on Marcone for saving Harry behind Bock's Books.  Gard warns Marcone then.  As a bonus she knows Harry will be appointed Emissary for Mab, which gives her a reason to strike at Harry.

I'm not talking about the Shedd; I'm talking about before Harry even calls the White Council over the Accords breach.

Again at no time is anyone aware of the location of the Denarian's until Ivy arrives.

But why couldn't everyone have tried to find the Denarians at Demonreach before Ivy was kidnapped?

Demonreach is first introduced in Small Favor.  Why would they look there?

You don't seem to understand the timeline of events. For instance they hold a council of war after dropping Gard off and discuss how to find the Nickleheads.  And are attacked on the way back to Michael's house by Torelli's people.  At which point they go to the Train Station.

[nadia.skylark]

Michael's first appearance in the book is after Titania's hitters attack Harry at Michael's house. The Denarian's don't show up until Harry finds Gard at the safe house.  At that point no one knows were the Denarian's are.  Contact is made through Ivy after the Accords protocol is invoked.

The timeline goes:
-Harry is attacked by Gruffs at Michael's house.
-Harry meets Mab and loses his fire magic.
-Harry finds Gard wounded and discovers that the Denarians are involved.
-Harry goes to Michael's house and asks him to help track down the Denarians.
-Michael refuses, so Harry initiates Accords protocols.

At no point, from the time Harry loses access to his fire magic to the time Michael refuses to hunt down the Denarians, does Harry have any reason whatsoever to use his fire magic in front of Michael.

At that point there is nobody to search for other than Marcone.

Given that my question is "why won't the Knights agree to hunt down the Denarians for the purpose of searching for and rescuing Marcone?" I'm really not sure what the point of this statement is.

Michael's suspicions come into play after the events at the Shedd.  Nic uses them to play on Harry's mind.  And Harry did not use fire magic at the Train Station while with Michael.

No. Here's the quotes:
Small Favor ch. 15

"So," I said, "I think we've got to move fast, and get Marcone away from them before he's forced to join up."

Michael frowned and folded his broad, work-scarred hands on the table before him. "What makes you think he's going to tell them no?"

"Marcone's scum," I said. "But he's his own scum. He doesn't work for anyone."

...

"Guys," I said, "I know that your first instincts tend to be to stand watch against the night, turning the other cheek, and so on. But he's here with maybe twice the demon-power he had on his last visit. If we wait for him to come to us, he'll tear us apart."

"Agreed," Sanya said firmly. "Take the initiative. Find him and hit the snake before he can coil to strike."

Michael shook his head. "Brother, you forget our purpose. We are not given our power so that we can strike down our enemies, no matter how much they might deserve it. Our purpose is to rescue the poor souls trapped by the Fallen." 

...

Michael smiled, but it was brief and strained. "My point is that we can undertake such an aggressive move in only the direst of circumstances."

"Faerie stands poised on the brink of an internal war," I said. "Which would probably reignite the war between the Council and the Vampire Courts--and in the bad guys' favor, I might add. One of the most dangerous men I've ever known is about to have involuntary access to the knowledge and power of a Fallen angel, which would give the Denarians access to major influence within the United States. Not to mention the serious personal consequences for me if they succeed in making it happen." I looked back and forth between the two Knights, and held up one hand straight over my head. "I vote dire. All in favor?"

Michael caught Sanya's hand on the way up, and pushed it gently back down to the table. "This isn't a democracy, Harry. We serve a King."

ch. 38

"That's the real reason you didn't want to hat up and go gunning for the Denarians right at first, the way I wanted to. You were worried I was leading you into a trap."

"I didn't lie to you, Harry." Michael said. "But I'd be lying right now if I didn't admit that, yes, the thought had crossed my mind."

These quotes demonstrate that Michael started distrusting Harry before the fire magic thing gave him a reason.

(Also, I take back what I said about the Marcone thing not being brought up. Apparently it was brought up, the Knights just...disregarded it. What the hell?)

Read the book.  Had you, you would know that she did.

Be less insulting. I have read all the books multiple times, and it was my understanding in Small Favor that Titania's interest in the situation was that she was countering Winter and trying to get revenge on Harry. I read nothing that indicated to me that she cared about Marcone in particular.

The why is speculative.  She hates Harry. The most obvious reason might be that she took revenge on Marcone for saving Harry behind Bock's Books.  Gard warns Marcone then.  As a bonus she knows Harry will be appointed Emissary for Mab, which gives her a reason to strike at Harry.

This might be a reason. Was there anything is Small Favor to indicate that Titania knew about Marcone saving Harry?

Again at no time is anyone aware of the location of the Denarian's until Ivy arrives.

Sorry, I phrased this poorly. What I meant was that they could have gone looking for the Denarians before Ivy got involved, and since I am of the belief that they were already on Demonreach at the time (they had to transport the stuff and do the setup for the circle after all, and it would make sense to get as much as possible done before they captured Ivy) there was no reason for TWG to be worried about collateral damage if they found them.

Demonreach is first introduced in Small Favor.  Why would they look there?

Because TWG told them to, because Harry sent a bunch of pixies to look everywhere, because someone worked out that they'd need access to a Ley line to put up defenses good enough to baffle everyone's tracking spells (I'm not sure if this is true or not)--any number of reasons. The point is that they should have been looking.

You don't seem to understand the timeline of events. For instance they hold a council of war after dropping Gard off and discuss how to find the Nickleheads.  And are attacked on the way back to Michael's house by Torelli's people.  At which point they go to the Train Station.

I understand the timeline just fine. It's you that seems to be confused. You seem to think that I'm arguing...something other than what I'm arguing. I'm not sure what.

What do you think I'm saying? (Apologies if I'm missing something obvious in what you're saying. It's 2am here.)

[morriswalters]

I apologize for being insulting.  In so far as the text indicates no one has been put into stasis since Demonreach was built and originally inhabited.  There is no good reason to put a fallen inside the fence.  Why would you take the chance?  And if you did, a Knight attempting a breakout would trigger the fail safe.  I believe that covers your original question. As to your current argument I find myself clueless.  However I  did respond to some of your points, I spoilered it because it is mostly a rehash of things I've already said.  And we are apparently in a similar timezone.

(click to show/hide)

I gave you a direct quote from Mab about Titania.  I really don't know how to make it clearer.  I didn't say that Titania knew of the events in the alley. I qualified the why as speculative.  Since the why was speculative I didn't bother with the how.  However possibly by the same mechanism that Mab employed on the attack on Marcone's panic room.  Your guess is as good as mine.

I'll repeat, Harry said he couldn't track them.  Had TWG given Michael the heads up I fairly certain that Michael wouldn't have needed Harry or that Michael would have ignored the call, so I guess TWG was hanging back.  Uriel was hanging at the Shedd giving out keys to soulfire.  And we never see Toot after the first call.  Who knows why?

One sign of trust is when you listen to your heart instead of the little seed of doubt, so I guess in my mind that it was the third act after the Shedd that the seedling burst from its husk. Certainly Michael followed Harry's lead at the Shedd and raked in the coins. You are welcome to differ.

[nadia.skylark]

In so far as the text indicates no one has been put into stasis since Demonreach was built and originally inhabited.

Good point.

There is no good reason to put a fallen inside the fence.  Why would you take the chance?

Because the Church is corrupt and the Coins need to be stored somewhere secure.

And if you did, a Knight attempting a breakout would trigger the fail safe.

Meh, I feel like TWG could get around this.

I gave you a direct quote from Mab about Titania.  I really don't know how to make it clearer.

I guess we just interpreted this quote differently. I had thought Mab's "put simply" meant that it was a Summer/Winter thing--Winter was trying to save him, so by default he was Titania's enemy.

I didn't say that Titania knew of the events in the alley. I qualified the why as speculative.  Since the why was speculative I didn't bother with the how.  However possibly by the same mechanism that Mab employed on the attack on Marcone's panic room.  Your guess is as good as mine.

Fair enough.

I'll repeat, Harry said he couldn't track them.

I'm not sure Harry knew that at this point. (Also, I'm still not sure why Harry couldn't find them even if his tracking spells weren't working--none of the Denarians' precautions seems to have extended to something that would stop determined pixies, and we know that Harry has used the Za Lord's Guard for searches in other books. But I suspect that this is just a plot hole.)

Had TWG given Michael the heads up I fairly certain that Michael wouldn't have needed Harry or that Michael would have ignored the call, so I guess TWG was hanging back.  Uriel was hanging at the Shedd giving out keys to soulfire.  And we never see Toot after the first call.  Who knows why?

I'd like to know why. That's one of the things about this that makes me so uncomfortable--why would TWG help arrange for Ivy to get tortured? (Obviously, free will was involved in a lot of this, but Harry also made the free willed decision to ask the Knights for help tracking down the Denarians without involving others--he only chose to make it an Accords issue when the Knights refused.)

One sign of trust is when you listen to your heart instead of the little seed of doubt, so I guess in my mind that it was the third act after the Shedd that the seedling burst from its husk.

I agree about the trust thing--I just think that Michael was listening to his doubts rather than his heart when he refused to help track down the Denarians (or he was listening to TWG, but like I said above, that just brings up another problem).

Certainly Michael followed Harry's lead at the Shedd and raked in the coins. You are welcome to differ.

I'm not sure how much lead-following was involved there--Harry was mostly unconscious or elsewhere for the parts that Michael was involved in, and Coin collecting is the Knights' job.

Note: I know it can come across like I hate the Knights or want to think badly of them. I don't; I actually really like them and want to think well of them--that's why it's so disturbing to me when they appear to be acting problematically. If I didn't care about them being the good guys, I wouldn't bother discussing things like this.

[Avernite]

Are we sure about this? I mean, it's one thing if the Denarians are actively doing something horrible, but if the Knights ran into one of them on vacation or something, would they be permitted to try to kill the Denarian even if he/she refused to give up the Coin? I mean, Michael spent 3-ish years thinking that Harry had taken up Lasciel's coin, but didn't do anything about it until Harry actively approached him.

IMO that falls under the prime directive (IF possible, save coin holders), where Michael was undoubtedly subtly trying to influence Harry into taking the right path. While Harry wasn't doing any bad things, Harry was out of the crosshairs for a fight. But for those coin holders who have clearly gone off the reservation, I think the Knights could confront them even in their off hours - they would still not open with a random stab to the heart, but they could go 'Hey Nic, fancy meeting you here. Please give up your coin!' and things would devolve from there.

[nadia.skylark]

But for those coin holders who have clearly gone off the reservation, I think the Knights could confront them even in their off hours - they would still not open with a random stab to the heart, but they could go 'Hey Nic, fancy meeting you here. Please give up your coin!' and things would devolve from there.

I've no doubt that if they ran into Nic on vacation, they would try to talk him into giving up his coin. The question I have is, if his response was to say "No, and I'm leaving" rather than try to attack them/any bystanders, could the Knights then attack him? Or if they found a Denarian frozen in Mab's garden and therefore unable either to cause trouble or repent, would that be a problem for them?

[Mira]

Though (and again, this is taking Nic at his word) they get MOST of their coins back via corruption in the Church, but not all.  We don't know how the other ones get out, it's possible that, like their ability to roll a bit on their own, to encourage people to pick a coin up, they might be able to somehow move themselves.  Otherwise dropping it in a box, covering the box with concrete and anti-summoning magic, and then tossing it in the ocean would be enough.

It also occurs to me that DemonReach is not a perfect prison.  Energy can leak out, the prisoners are at least somewhat aware and somewhat able to reach out of their cells, since they can communicate.  A coin in DR plus a prisoner of DR could lead to some very bad things.  Like taking advantage of the security of a max security prison by also using it to store nuclear weapons.

I think corruption in the Church is part of the answer, the coins as you say present themselves as too much of a temptation...  At the end of Skin Game Michael asks Harry if he is going to turn the artifacts over to the Church... Harry answers, "nope."  Michael thinks for a second or two and then agrees with him..  The only reason why he would is he also thinks there is corruption in his beloved Church,

 I don't think it is safe even to toss them into the ocean, they'd find their way back on shore somehow even if it is a fish consuming one and some unsuspecting fisherman coming in contact...  Not unlike the One Ring.

[morriswalters]

I'd like to know why. That's one of the things about this that makes me so uncomfortable--why would TWG help arrange for Ivy to get tortured? (Obviously, free will was involved in a lot of this, but Harry also made the free willed decision to ask the Knights for help tracking down the Denarians without involving others--he only chose to make it an Accords issue when the Knights refused.)

The obvious answer is that it serves the narrative.  However I assume you want it from inside the story.  TWG didn't arrange to torture Ivy.  Nicodemus and his cohorts did.  The Knight's themselves can't quit being Knights because it is painful and inconvenient.  And at the point of the conversation Ivy was not yet at hazard and no one was aware she was the target.  You know the outcome but in the book they don't.  Michael chose not to confront the Denarian's without the ability to give them a choice.  Harry gave that to him and allowed Michael to hold his moral ground.

The timeline makes you keep track of not only what happened when, but when the protagonists knew what they could know.  So it is only after the Shedd that everyone is aware of Ivy and her hazard.

[nadia.skylark]

The obvious answer is that it serves the narrative.  However I assume you want it from inside the story.

Yes.

TWG didn't arrange to torture Ivy.  Nicodemus and his cohorts did.

Yeah, but he didn't arrange anything to stop her being tortured either, and you would think that it would be part of the Knights' job to interfere with stuff like that.

The Knight's themselves can't quit being Knights because it is painful and inconvenient.

They don't have to quit being Knights. In Death Masks, the Knights were perfectly happy to engage in rescue missions: Shiro went and rescued Harry. Michael and Sanya went to try and rescue Shiro. Them going to rescue Marcone would not have violated their purpose as Knights.

And at the point of the conversation Ivy was not yet at hazard and no one was aware she was the target.  You know the outcome but in the book they don't.

TWG knows--He's supposed to be omniscient. Uriel really ought to know. I'm not assuming that anyone else does.

Michael chose not to confront the Denarian's without the ability to give them a choice.

Why couldn't he give them a choice? Why couldn't Michael and Sanya find the Denarians, knock their door down, and demand that they give up their coins and tell him where Marcone is? This is, after all, exactly what Michael and Sanya did do with Cassius in Death Masks--why not now?

Harry gave that to him and allowed Michael to hold his moral ground.

Yes. However, given that Michael's moral ground apparently requires him to not try to rescue someone who he knows is being tortured, I don't actually think that this is a good thing.

The timeline makes you keep track of not only what happened when, but when the protagonists knew what they could know.

Yes. At the point where the Knights refuse to go looking for the Denarians, they know that a person is being tortured, that Harry has given up Lasciel's coin, and that he has stated that he never took up the coin and yet got rid of the shadow.

So it is only after the Shedd that everyone is aware of Ivy and her hazard.

I've only ever brought Ivy up as a consideration before this point in terms of what TWG knows, since I don't really see Him not knowing about Ivy.

[morriswalters]

Yeah, but he didn't arrange anything to stop her being tortured either, and you would think that it would be part of the Knights' job to interfere with stuff like that.

This is pointless.  We've covered this ground multiple times.  I'm done.   

[nadia.skylark]

This is pointless.  We've covered this ground multiple times.  I'm done.

Okay?

I am under the impression that the Knights' job is to "rescue the poor souls trapped by the Fallen" in Michael's words. I also believe that their secondary purpose is to protect the innocent as directed to by TWG, as evidenced by the many times we see them do that.

In Small Favor, we see the Knights both actively refuse to rescue a soul from being trapped by the Fallen and act in such a way that it appears they are not being directed to act such that it would protect an innocent from being tortured.

I assume I am missing something here, because this seems inexplicable to me. I had hoped that discussion would allow me to realize what I was missing, but I'm apparently also missing something in your posts...

[morriswalters]

I assume I am missing something here, because this seems inexplicable to me. I had hoped that discussion would allow me to realize what I was missing, but I'm apparently also missing something in your posts...

I have no idea.  I just know that I don't have the answers you're seeking.