If the Denarians are trapped in Demonreach...

[nadia.skylark]

...would the KotC try to break them out? I've heard a theory that the way to trap the Coins in Demonreach is to trap their bearers with them, thus subverting the "meant to be in circulation" issue--they are in circulation, it's just that their hosts can't do anything. The problem with this is that a coinbearer trapped in stasis on Demonreach couldn't repent (I don't think), so it seems like something the Knights would have a problem with.

[Con]

Hmm once the Knight's have offered redemption and been accepted or turned down they don't have much say in what happens to them. Michael and Sanya didn't seem to mind Harry kneecapping Cassius, so I don't see how they'd have a problem with imprisonment.

[KurtinStGeorge]

The problem with this is that a coinbearer trapped in stasis on Demonreach couldn't repent (I don't think), so it seems like something the Knights would have a problem with.

It's probable that the things trapped on or within Demonreach are effectively immortal no matter where they are.  We don't know if Demonreach would keep a mortal alive for eternity.  The coin-bearer is only effectively immortal as long the fallen angel trapped in the coin maintains them.  What if whatever power that locks down Demonreach's prisoners cuts off the coin-bearer from the coin?  All of those other prisoners have metric but tons of magical potential yet none of them seem to be able to use their magic.  The coin-bearer might still be able to talk to their Fallen buddy; or not, but they would be locked down from the magical benefits, like the no-aging one. 

In this scenario the coin-bearer dies of old age and Demonreach does something to remove the coin from the island; because it was the actions of the coin-bearer that got him or her locked up.  Demonreach doesn't count the demon whispering in their ear.

Before you bring up the British prisoner, it's possible that he might not be a mortal or he might be a special case.  He somehow acquired the ability to remain ageless, that cannot be undone by confinement on the island without killing him outright.  I have a feeling the island doesn't do that kind of thing to it's prisoners. 

[nadia.skylark]

Hmm once the Knight's have offered redemption and been accepted or turned down they don't have much say in what happens to them. Michael and Sanya didn't seem to mind Harry kneecapping Cassius, so I don't see how they'd have a problem with imprisonment.

I'm not sure. You're right about Cassius, but on the other hand I'm reasonably confident that Nicodemus had been offered lots of chances for redemption by the beginning of Small Favor, but Michael and Sanya still couldn't go after him proactively.

[peregrine]

The problem with this is that a coinbearer trapped in stasis on Demonreach couldn't repent (I don't think), so it seems like something the Knights would have a problem with.

The bearer can't repent if they're dead either, but the Knights don't have a huge problem with using the Swords with lethal intent.

[Mira]

The bearer can't repent if they're dead either, but the Knights don't have a huge problem with using the Swords with lethal intent.

Exactly,  they give the coin holder a goodly chance at surrendering, giving it up to be free to redeem themselves or not with the life remaining to them.. If not, no problem at all giving the chop or stab and retrieving the coin that way...

[nadia.skylark]

Exactly,  they give the coin holder a goodly chance at surrendering, giving it up to be free to redeem themselves or not with the life remaining to them.. If not, no problem at all giving the chop or stab and retrieving the coin that way...

True, but if the Denarian survives, the Knights have to give him/her another chance to repent the next time they run into each other--the Knight can't just kill the Denarian now just because he she refused to repent last year. Also, the Knights can't just hunt down Denarians and demand that they repent or die--they have to wait until they run into them by "coincidence" or the Denarian(s) is/are doing something actively objectionable. Given the time factor, and since they couldn't be doing anything objectionable locked up in Demonreach, I'm not sure how it would work. Could the Knights just ask the Denarians to repent, and if they refused the Warden would lock them up in Demonreach? Would the Knights have to visit the Denarian prisoners at intervals? What if the Warden just locked up Denarians without anyone asking them to repent--what would the Knights do then?

[peregrine]

Also, the Knights can't just hunt down Denarians and demand that they repent or die--they have to wait until they run into them by "coincidence" or the Denarian(s) is/are doing something actively objectionable.

Given what Forthill said about Michael needing a babysitter for his family, and (I think?) we saw Michael heading to the airport, plus Sanya and Shiro coming to Chicago, that "coincidence" can include things like "Got on a plane and tracked them down."

[nadia.skylark]

Given what Forthill said about Michael needing a babysitter for his family, and (I think?) we saw Michael heading to the airport, plus Sanya and Shiro coming to Chicago, that "coincidence" can include things like "Got on a plane and tracked them down."

But not "found out that they were in town kidnapping and murdering people, and went to look for them." It's a little confusing, honestly. I once again don't have my copy of Small Favor, so I can't quote the scene, but the part where Michael refuses to track down the Denarians in that book always struck me as extremely odd--it would have been a rescue mission, after all, but apparently that wasn't acceptable for the Knights to do?

[morriswalters]

...would the KotC try to break them out?

One might think the prison guard would have a plan for a breakout, like the Banefire for example. 

Breaking contact resets the shot clock.  They've tried to kill Nic multiple times and have failed.  Each time they reengage the clock starts ticking anew and they have to give the Fallen's host a chance to repent.  Rinse and repeat.  Seem's a little silly to me, but I'm not writing the books.

I believe you misremember Michael's objections in Small Favor.

[Snark Knight]

Wait, why is the host a factor in this? By far the easiest way for Fallen to end up in Demonreach is for Harry to chuck the next few coins he retrieves off of dead Denarians into the back of one of the tunnels. A live host is going to be putting up one hell of a fight, but scooping pocket change off a corpse is comparatively easy.

Wrap them in whatever blessed container it takes to prevent other Denarians summoning their comrades' coins back, leave a sign "Future Wardens: Do Not Touch", and basically forget about them. Whether they're meant to be in circulation or not, that's a free-willed mortal's choice to put them well beyond reach of anyone else.

[nadia.skylark]

I believe you misremember Michael's objections in Small Favor.

That's possible. Could you post a quote of that section, please?

Wait, why is the host a factor in this? By far the easiest way for Fallen to end up in Demonreach is for Harry to chuck the next few coins he retrieves off of dead Denarians into the back of one of the tunnels. A live host is going to be putting up one hell of a fight, but scooping pocket change off a corpse is comparatively easy.

Wrap them in whatever blessed container it takes to prevent other Denarians summoning their comrades' coins back, leave a sign "Future Wardens: Do Not Touch", and basically forget about them. Whether they're meant to be in circulation or not, that's a free-willed mortal's choice to put them well beyond reach of anyone else.

It's an idea that I saw on an older thread: that because the coins are supposed to be in circulation, something would inevitably happen to release them from Demonreach (the same way they always manage to escape from the Church). Trapping the host as well was put forth as a possible loophole--the Fallen inside the Coins are still free to corrupt the people holding them (thus still "in circulation"), it's just that the Coins' holders are prevented from acting to spread that corruption any further.

[KurtinStGeorge]

Wait, why is the host a factor in this? By far the easiest way for Fallen to end up in Demonreach is for Harry to chuck the next few coins he retrieves off of dead Denarians into the back of one of the tunnels. A live host is going to be putting up one hell of a fight, but scooping pocket change off a corpse is comparatively easy.

Wrap them in whatever blessed container it takes to prevent other Denarians summoning their comrades' coins back, leave a sign "Future Wardens: Do Not Touch", and basically forget about them. Whether they're meant to be in circulation or not, that's a free-willed mortal's choice to put them well beyond reach of anyone else.

Maybe, maybe not.  Remember way back in Death Masks when Harry wanted Bob to look for the Shroud of Turin and Bob said he couldn't go anywhere near it?  His exact words were, ""It doesn't exist on the same wavelength as me. It's out of my jurisdiction."  It's possible that Alfred might say; not the exact same words, but something similar. The island might be on a different wavelength or made to lock up living beings, not incorporeal spirits; even if those spirits are trapped within a coin. 

Another way to think about it is Alfred might have rules about who can be locked up on the island and who can't, and under what circumstances the island is allowed to lock up a supernatural entity.  For a variety of reasons the Denarians, or just the Fallen trapped in the coin, might not apply.  We know the island has a lot of dangerous supernatural prisoners, but we don't know how they earned their prison sentence.   

[Mira]

Given what Forthill said about Michael needing a babysitter for his family, and (I think?) we saw Michael heading to the airport, plus Sanya and Shiro coming to Chicago, that "coincidence" can include things like "Got on a plane and tracked them down."

Also Knights just don't let coin holders go...  If they don't give up their coins, they fight them to the death or they get away... They try and talk them into giving up the coin during the confrontation, if they give it up then they are obligated to let them go to seek or not their own redemption... That is why both Cassius and Nic gave up their coins, it stopped the fight...  In the case of Cassius, aside from Harry, who wasn't a Knight, he was dealing with current Knights, Michael and Sanya, who then let him go... Then without coin protection he began to age and he wasn't able as he thought to gain another coin..  Because Murphy didn't stop fighting and tried to execute Nic after he "gave up" his coin and noose, she broke the rules and a Holy Sword... Then all bets were off, Nic took back both coin and noose and beat the crap out of her... 

[nadia.skylark]

Also Knights just don't let coin holders go...

Are we sure about this? I mean, it's one thing if the Denarians are actively doing something horrible, but if the Knights ran into one of them on vacation or something, would they be permitted to try to kill the Denarian even if he/she refused to give up the Coin? I mean, Michael spent 3-ish years thinking that Harry had taken up Lasciel's coin, but didn't do anything about it until Harry actively approached him.