If the Denarians are trapped in Demonreach...

[nadia.skylark]

Crassus didn't lose the coin, he gave it up, like the post says.

This.

[morriswalters]

If you are going to use the One Ring analogy understand what the One ring was trying to do.  Bilbo's ring was trying to return to Sauron, its master.  It was dropped when Sauron was killed. 

The analogy isn't perfect but it is what it is. The Denarians are Sauron.  The Church is Gollum.   So it isn't a case of the coin abandoning its holder, the case is the church not being able to hold on to the coins.

[Mira]

If you are going to use the One Ring analogy understand what the One ring was trying to do.  Bilbo's ring was trying to return to Sauron, its master.  It was dropped when Sauron was killed. 

The analogy isn't perfect but it is what it is. The Denarians are Sauron.  The Church is Gollum.   So it isn't a case of the coin abandoning its holder, the case is the church not being able to hold on to the coins.

Sort of....  The coins cannot actively locate hosts, but passively they do ensure that if they are touched or picked up by a potential host they eventually will be accepted.. That was the whole point of the shadow and carefully matching the right coin to the right potential host... One who will be responsive to the particular talents and temptations of the Fallen trapped in the coin.

[groinkick]

Um...no, actually, you're wrong. Michael says so.

Michael was saying that in the context of Sonja wanting to use the power of the Swords to punish the Fallen.  If the main purpose of the Swords was to save those possessed by the Fallen, it wouldn't be a weapon that's only function is to destroy.  Unless anyone can point to an example of one of the Swords doing anything other than destroy whatever enemy that's in the way?  This goes to my previous comment which the Swords primary role is to smite those who wish to do evil.

[Mira]

Michael was saying that in the context of Sonja wanting to use the power of the Swords to punish the Fallen.  If the main purpose of the Swords was to save those possessed by the Fallen, it wouldn't be a weapon that's only function is to destroy.  Unless anyone can point to an example of one of the Swords doing anything other than destroy whatever enemy that's in the way?  This goes to my previous comment which the Swords primary role is to smite those who wish to do evil.

That is their role, but if the adversary surrenders, thus giving himself or herself a chance for redemption down the line, they might not..  A  Sword will not allow itself to be misused to quote Michael from Grave Peril...  It gets tricky, they are supposed to smite evil,but at the same time
the Knight isn't supposed to act as judge and jury of someone he or she defeated..  But in the course of battle it is okay to smite away...  To quote Ned Stark as told to Sansa by Jon Snow, "everything that comes before, "but," is bullshit..."

[nadia.skylark]

Michael was saying that in the context of Sonja wanting to use the power of the Swords to punish the Fallen.  If the main purpose of the Swords was to save those possessed by the Fallen, it wouldn't be a weapon that's only function is to destroy.

To borrow Michael's words again, "You're making the same mistake Nicodemus did. You think the most important word in 'Sword of Faith' is 'sword.'"

The Swords are wielded by the Knights. We see loads of examples of the Knights helping people or trying to help people rather than just destroying evil.

Unless anyone can point to an example of one of the Swords doing anything other than destroy whatever enemy that's in the way?

Offhand, Butters' use of Fiddelachius to scare Nicodemus away and help inspire the Squires to repent without doing more than disabling his weapon. Sanya "coincidentally" appearing just in time to save Harry's neighbors from being burned to death. Shiro rescuing Harry from Nicodemus.

[Hankthemoose]

...would the KotC try to break them out? I've heard a theory that the way to trap the Coins in Demonreach is to trap their bearers with them, thus subverting the "meant to be in circulation" issue--they are in circulation, it's just that their hosts can't do anything. The problem with this is that a coinbearer trapped in stasis on Demonreach couldn't repent (I don't think), so it seems like something the Knights would have a problem with.

I think the idea that Demonreach can't simply lock up the coins without a bearer is laughable. The church can't hold the coins because it puts the coins in the hands of free-willed humans. It's like hiding a steak in a dog kennel. Demonreach is not a free-willed mortal. He imprisons things that are WAY more powerful than some pathetic ex-angels, and can't be influenced by puny nickleheads that can't even manifest outside their coins.

[Mira]

I think the idea that Demonreach can't simply lock up the coins without a bearer is laughable. The church can't hold the coins because it puts the coins in the hands of free-willed humans. It's like hiding a steak in a dog kennel. Demonreach is not a free-willed mortal. He imprisons things that are WAY more powerful than some pathetic ex-angels, and can't be influenced by puny nickleheads that can't even manifest outside their coins.

Um. ex-angels are still pretty powerful, it is just that a Being a bit more powerful clipped their wings so to speak...

[g33k]

I think the idea that Demonreach can't simply lock up the coins without a bearer is laughable. The church can't hold the coins because it puts the coins in the hands of free-willed humans. It's like hiding a steak in a dog kennel. Demonreach is not a free-willed mortal. He imprisons things that are WAY more powerful than some pathetic ex-angels, and can't be influenced by puny nickleheads that can't even manifest outside their coins.

The Denarians are "locked" into their coins because of a deal.  It gives them a solid presence in the world, interaction with mortals, that they couldn't get any other way.  It lets them set long-term plans into motion, guide and nourish those plans, revise them at need, take advantage of new/unexpected opportunities, etc.  All the other Fallen are locked out (except for all-too-rare-for-their-tastes-summonings).

Other than the limits they face of being coin-bound without a mortal host, I believe the Fallen Angels are still, roughly, at the same power-level they were before their Fall (though I don't think that's ever been made explicit in the stories or any WoJ?).  They may have Fallen, but they are still Angels.  The sheer potency of that is beyond all the Earth-centric beings we meet, even the ultra-powerful ones.

In the Dresden'verse, Angelic-level beings are more powerful than any others we see; Uriel, in particular, is known to have the kind of power that could destroy an entire galaxy without even working at it -- and he's more a "subtle" than a mighty type!  Mab and Vadderung and Ferrovax are orders of magnitude weaker.