Theorycrafting - Mab is infected and the eventual death of Mab

[Cozarkian]

As JB is a lazy writer, it makes sense for him to use the same possession methodology for Nemesis as he does for Denarians. We have seen Denarians operate in two ways.

1. Anduriel/Nicodemus work as a partnership. This parallels Nemesis/Maeve - Maeve was voluntarily working with Nemesis in exchange for freedom from her mother. Nemesis prefers this method.

2. Magog uses brute force to enslave the minds and bodies of his hosts. This parallels Nemesis/Cat Sith.

Now let's look at Harry and Lasciel. Through Lasciel's spirit, Lasciel attempted to form a cooperative (#1) relationship with Harry. However, as shown in Small Favor, Nicodemus believed that Lasciel would be able to use brute force (#2) to paralyze Harry long enough for Nicodemus to kill Harry.

My theory is that Mab is currently infected in the same manner that Harry was. When Mab touched took the Athame from Leah Nemesis was able to imprint on her. Nemesis is currently attempting to build a cooperative (#1) relationship. Mab is currently refusing and is too strong for Nemesis to simply take over like it did Cat Sith.

Why is this important? I think that Mab recognizes she can only prevail against Nemesis in the short term. Eventually, Nemesis will erode her defenses and start to take over. That is why Mab wants Harry as WK. We are vulnerable to ourselves. The Queens are Winter and the WK is part of Winter. Thus, while the Queens appear to control the WK, they are also secretly vulnerable to the WK. Mab needs a WK that will be strong and wise enough to exploit that vulnerability and kill her when she starts to lose control. One of Mab's goals in Cold Days was to start Harry on the road to discovering that the Queens are vulnerable to the WK. Harry now knows that the Immortal Queens can be stopped in certain places or certain times, and is on the path to learning that the Immortal Queens can also be stopped by certain people (i.e. their Knight).

This brings us to two possibilities. The first is that Harry will actually kill Mab, setting off the BAT. However, I think Harry is going to get around that and go with option #2. Harry will realize that it is Winter that is vulnerable to the Winter Knight, not the individual person in which Winter resides. Thus, Harry, will find a way to destroy the Winter mantle, setting Mab free of Winter. This will still set off the BAT, but it will create a touching scene in which Mab (and Molly) are restored to their humanity.

[DonBugen]

There's a difference between the coins and nemesis, however.  The coins are only given to free-will-holding mortals.  The Genoskwa, while a big bad monster, is still a being of the Really Real World, and I'd argue that it has free will and choice, the same way as Goodman Grey does.  When Nicodemus instructs the shadow to paralyze Dresden, I don't believe that's because all shadows, regardless of the amount of will invested towards them, have the ability to paralyze their hosts; rather, that Nicodemus assumed that Dresden would have given in enough for Lash to have enough power to restrain him.

Nemesis seems to infect mortals and immortals alike, and will doesn't seem to be a part of it.
 Perhaps this argument could be made with a mortal; I'm not sure that it could be made to a being without free will.  Your statement seems to imply that Mab's will is that much stronger than Maeve's was, which is a fallacy - neither have free will.

Do you have any passages which can support Mab as infected?  Because I can think of a ton which imply that she isn't, including pretty much all of Cold Days.

[morriswalters]

Do you have any passages which can support Mab as infected?  Because I can think of a ton which imply that she isn't, including pretty much all of Cold Days.

I don't think Mab is infected, but depending on how the Athame transmitted the infection, it is in the realm of possibility.  She handles it before she discovers the infection in Leah.  From a story telling point of view there is more drama to be had by Mab getting back stabbed by someone she trusts, which would work against the idea of Mab being infected.  And if you read Changes closely, Leah has suppressed the infection, but isn't free of it.  Make of that what you will.

[groinkick]

I'm of the opinion that Mab is out of Nemesis's weight class.  I'm not saying she's more powerful, just that she's powerful enough to stop it's influence. 


I will note that Jim used his words carefully when he said that "Mab thought she was doing the right thing" when doing what she did for Leah....  Thought she was doing the right thing vs doing the right thing are two different things.

[Cozarkian]

Nemesis seems to infect mortals and immortals alike, and will doesn't seem to be a part of it.
 Perhaps this argument could be made with a mortal; I'm not sure that it could be made to a being without free will.  Your statement seems to imply that Mab's will is that much stronger than Maeve's was, which is a fallacy - neither have free will.

Do you have any passages which can support Mab as infected?  Because I can think of a ton which imply that she isn't, including pretty much all of Cold Days.

Creatures without free will still have will. Vadderung, the Red King, and Mother Winter all demonstrate the ability to paralyze Harry with will alone (each time Harry gets progressively better at dealing with it - not at all, with help, and by himself). Mab absolutely has stronger will than Maeve. Also, Maeve didn't want to resist Nemesis. She wanted (the illusion) of free will and accepted it freely.

PG and CD both raise the issue of Mab being potentially infected. The story plays out in a way to demonstrate that Maeve was infected. My theory is that this could be misdirection from JB. We are meant to believe that only one of Maeve or Mab was infected when secretly they both are and the difference is that Maeve welcomes it and Mab resists.

[Cozarkian]

And if you read Changes closely, Leah has suppressed the infection, but isn't free of it.  Make of that what you will.

Oh? Would you mind elaborating?

I'm of the opinion that Mab is out of Nemesis's weight class.  I'm not saying she's more powerful, just that she's powerful enough to stop it's influence. 

I agree to the extent. Again, it is like Harry/Lasciel. Harry isn't more powerful than Lasciel, but he had the ability to resist her at first contact and bury the coin. But Lasciel left a shadow and started speaking to his subconscious, eventually leading to the use of Hellfire and active attempts at subversion. Eventually Harry won the battle, resisted temptation and transformed the shadow into Lash, who sacrificed herself for him. But Mab doesn't have free will like Harry, so it might be impossible for her to win a long-term war with an entity that is trying to change her nature. She can and is winning battle after battle, but eventually, she'll start to lose ground and will fall.

[Avernite]

In my opinion, Nemfection of Mab would not be lazy, it would be overdone. We've had two whole books driven by Fae Nemfection; one with Harry being clueless (Summer Knight), and one with him knowing (Cold Days). In addition, at least two other books (Proven Guilty and Small Favor) touched on said storyline without being dominated by it.

If Mab goes off the rails through Nemfection, Harry understands and is prepared. That's not the Harry we know, so it won't happen - in my opinion.

[nadia.skylark]

In my opinion, Nemfection of Mab would not be lazy, it would be overdone. We've had two whole books driven by Fae Nemfection; one with Harry being clueless (Summer Knight), and one with him knowing (Cold Days). In addition, at least two other books (Proven Guilty and Small Favor) touched on said storyline without being dominated by it.

If Mab goes off the rails through Nemfection, Harry understands and is prepared. That's not the Harry we know, so it won't happen - in my opinion.

I agree. If we find out that Mab is nemfected, I believe that it will only be because Mab suicides to prevent it taking over, so that we can see the fallout from that. Whether she just kills herself and Winter has to reorganize around a new queen (probably at an extremely inconvenient time) or whether Mab suicides by attacking another powerful being (Titania? Ferrovax?) and everyone has to cope with the consequences, seeing that would be a lot more interesting than seeing yet another Faerie queen fall to nemfection.

[Griffyn612]

Oh? Would you mind elaborating?

   Something dark flickered through her emerald eyes, and she turned her face slightly away from me. “Indeed,” she said quietly. “You saw what it means for my queen to heal an affliction."
   “What affliction?”
   “A madness had beset me,” she whispered. “Robbed me of myself. Treacherous gifts . . .” She shook her head. “I can think on it no more, lest it make me vulnerable once again. Suffice to say that I am much better now.” She stroked a fingertip over an icy white streak in her hair. “The strength of my queen prevailed, and my mind is mine own.”

Based on the fact Lea (presumably) can't lie, she seems to be healed and better but still susceptible to a recurrence. Or at least she believes she is.

I'm not sure about it being suppressed or gone or what.

[Hankthemoose]

I don't like it. There is absolutely no breadcrumb trail to suggest Mab would be infected, and it would be truly and deeply lame from a plot point of view.

1.)Jim fucking LOVES breadcrumb trails and foreshadowing
2.)Jim is not a garbage author

therefore Mab is not infected.