How many humans has Harry killed with magic? 4+?

[TrueMonk]

So there is
1  - Justin
?? - Drugged young people at the party in Biancas house when it burns in Grave Peril
2? - Raiths bodyguards when they drive into Harry's lance of force in Blood Rites
1? - The wolfhound that is part of the hunt which Harry hits with force magic so it/he hits the ground at breakneck speed in Cold Days

It seems odd that he never considers the bodyguards and the teenager disguised as a wolfhound as violations of the law. I know we do not see them die for certain, but it seems very likely.

Can you think of more he has killed? Why do you think those last three do not bother him?

[nadia.skylark]

Raiths bodyguards when they drive into Harry's lance of force in Blood Rites

Did he kill them? I thought he just caused a car crash that injured/trapped them.

Modern cars are pretty good at stopping their passengers from being killed in wrecks (usually by getting destroyed around the passengers).

[KurtinStGeorge]

When Harry talks to the twin of one of the bodyguards in the Raith's Deeps, his words seem to confirm that he killed the other twin and the second bodyguard in the car.  Of course Harry could have been wrong and they were just badly injured.  In that case I think Lara would have finished them off. 

I've seen an SUV that flipped over a couple of time with several people seatbelted in their seats.  While there weren't any crushinging injuries because the passenger compartment wasn't compromised, they all had severe injuries and all of them were concussed.  All of them were knocked unconscious and after I pulled off the road and ran up to their vehicle, I could see all of them slowly regaining consciousness.  I told them not to move and said 911 had already been called.  It took a little over 20 minutes for an ambulance to arrive and none of them moved much at all.  (This occurred on a mountain road near Mammoth Mountain, CA. maybe ten, twelve years ago.)

So if the bodyguards weren't seatbelted, they probably would have died.  Harry only describes them as crumpled forms who weren't moving.  So we can't be 100% certain Harry killed them, just say it's possible, maybe even probable, that he killed them.

[morriswalters]

Technically there is a difference between dropping a car on someone with a force spell and killing someone directly with fire.  Given that, then Harry has killed only one human with magic.  That comes straight out of Jim.  Go figure.

[nadia.skylark]

Technically there is a difference between dropping a car on someone with a force spell and killing someone directly with fire.  Given that, then Harry has killed only one human with magic.  That comes straight out of Jim.  Go figure.

Are you sure? I had thought that Jim said that there wasn't a difference, at least not in terms of whether it violated the First Law.

[peregrine]

Are you sure? I had thought that Jim said that there wasn't a difference, at least not in terms of whether it violated the First Law.

Or at least, not much of a difference.  I recall his example was using a gust of wind to blow someone off a roof.  Technically it's the fall of gravity that did it, but that's not enough to make a difference.

[groinkick]

So there is
1  - Justin
?? - Drugged young people at the party in Biancas house when it burns in Grave Peril
2? - Raiths bodyguards when they drive into Harry's lance of force in Blood Rites
1? - The wolfhound that is part of the hunt which Harry hits with force magic so it/he hits the ground at breakneck speed in Cold Days

It seems odd that he never considers the bodyguards and the teenager disguised as a wolfhound as violations of the law. I know we do not see them die for certain, but it seems very likely.

Can you think of more he has killed? Why do you think those last three do not bother him?

A human that is transformed isn't considered a human at that point.  The person wasn't disguised as a wolfhound, he was one.  He was on the great hunt.  He's no longer some vanilla mortal at that point.

We don't know how many if any were killed at the party.  Harry did say that there would be consequences for it though.

Should a police officer feel bad about killing a person who's trying to kill him?  Why should Harry feel bad about ghosting some baddies who were trying to end both he, and Murphy?

We don't know what goes on in Harry's mind.  As Jim has said we basically see the craziest week of the year for Harry in each book.  We don't know how Harry reflects on the things he has done in the past because when we do see him he's pretty much fighting for his life, and the lives of others.  No time to sit and think.  The time off is where he probably reflects on the things that have happened.

[nadia.skylark]

A human that is transformed isn't considered a human at that point.

Are we sure about this?

Should a police officer feel bad about killing a person who's trying to kill him?  Why should Harry feel bad about ghosting some baddies who were trying to end both he, and Murphy?

Well, assuming he killed them with magic, the answer is: because it is both inherently corruptive and inherently addictive. Killing bad guys with magic makes you more likely to kill good guys with magic.

[peregrine]

Should a police officer feel bad about killing a person who's trying to kill him?  Why should Harry feel bad about ghosting some baddies who were trying to end both he, and Murphy?

Because it's been well established in the world that killing someone with magic has very real issues associated with it that are different from using a knife or gun.

[groinkick]

Because it's been well established in the world that killing someone with magic has very real issues associated with it that are different from using a knife or gun.

Yeah but why should Harry feel bad about it?  He might not like using magic for that purpose but I'm pretty sure it's something he can live with considering the alternative.

Are we sure about this?

No, but I surmise it.  The Hunt is a mixture of the physical, and spiritual.  Becoming a beast of the Hunt transforms the person into a mixture of physical, and spiritual.  I think anyways.

Well, assuming he killed them with magic, the answer is: because it is both inherently corruptive and inherently addictive. Killing bad guys with magic makes you more likely to kill good guys with magic.

Not entirely.  According to Jim it makes it easier to use the magic as you used it.  So it would become easier to use the magic to kill someone you saw as an enemy.  This could lead to Harry becoming more likely to use lethal magic if he sees someone as an enemy.

[nadia.skylark]

The Hunt is a mixture of the physical, and spiritual.  Becoming a beast of the Hunt transforms the person into a mixture of physical, and spiritual.  I think anyways.

That makes sense. A more normal transformation might be different, however.

According to Jim it makes it easier to use the magic as you used it.  So it would become easier to use the magic to kill someone you saw as an enemy.  This could lead to Harry becoming more likely to use lethal magic if he sees someone as an enemy.

I thought this had been explained as: You can only do something with magic if you believe it's right, and using magic to do so reinforces that belief (for black magic, at least. I'm not sure about other magic). Thus, killing someone with magic means that you have the *right* to determine who lives and who dies, and encourages you to disregard others' right to life. For instance, Harry might start out killing murderers and rapists, but would then progress to murdering someone who tried to steal his car, and then to his friends when they tried to stop him. He's not killing anyone who's *on his side*, but his concern for not killing people is eroding to the point where eventually just getting in his way is sufficient reason. That's what black magic does (at least, according to the White Council). In Molly's words, "It's easy. It isn't supposed to be so easy." (at least, something like that. I don't have my copy of Ghost Story with me). 

[TrueMonk]

Yeah but why should Harry feel bad about it?  He might not like using magic for that purpose but I'm pretty sure it's something he can live with considering the alternative.

How many times does he ponder about the purity of magic and how important it is to use it for the right reasons and how X and Y villain is corrupting it? A LOT of times! It is to the degree that it gets a bit repetitive af the fifth read/listen (bit I guess I can't blame Jim for not writing in a way that lends itself to being reread that many times).
It just seems odd that he is so into it and then with the crashed car and the wolfhound he never thinks about it afterwards. At least not on stage.

[nedserD C B yrraH]

Yeah but why should Harry feel bad about it?  He might not like using magic for that purpose but I'm pretty sure it's something he can live with considering the alternative.

Because not caring is what makes you a monster. Remember his conversation with Micheal. Monsters don't care. Sure, Harry said he'd do it twice as hard, but feeling remorse, concern, and regretting the necessity of your actions are the mark of a good person.

To your earlier question about a cop feeling bad about using lethal force, that is answered directly in the series. Murphy is wrecked by killing Denton. She knew it was the right thing to do and it still left her spirit broken. She brings this up when Harry is losing sleep about killing Corspetaker in cold blood. Just because an action save lives, it still cost one and that decision should never be an easy one. Or you're on the road to being a monster.

Don't even have to get into the effects of dark magic. That action affects everyone with free will in the DV.

[nadia.skylark]

It just seems odd that he is so into it and then with the crashed car and the wolfhound he never thinks about it afterwards. At least not on stage.

For the car crash, I had actually taken that as an indication that nobody had died. For the wolfhound, he did feel bad about it at the time--he just got understandably distracted by everything else that was going on that night, and by the time it was all resolved, I suspect that he just forgot. After all, he had much bigger worries by that point.