Easy evocations cost?

[nadia.skylark]

How much refresh do people think it should cost to buy a power that allows you to use the Nevernever's "easy evocations" ability on Earth? Should there be an upgrade available to let you use normal-strength spellcasting without stress as well (this should probably be limited to evocations that are weaker than your conviction+refinement)? If so, how much should that cost? Should it be split into two upgrades, one for evocations weaker than just your conviction, and one for evocations at your conviction+refinement?

[Sanctaphrax]

How much refresh do people think it should cost to buy a power that allows you to use the Nevernever's "easy evocations" ability on Earth?

2 Refresh, maybe?

I's a real nice trick, but easy evocations lack the punch of real evocations. The only real differences between using easy evocations and using Fists are range and that you get to use one of your best skills plus your power bonuses.

Should there be an upgrade available to let you use normal-strength spellcasting without stress as well (this should probably be limited to evocations that are weaker than your conviction+refinement)?

I don't think so. The ceiling on spellcaster power is already very high, and the risk of running out of juice is part of what gives evocation its personality.

[nadia.skylark]

2 Refresh, maybe?

Thanks!

The only real differences between using easy evocations and using Fists are range and that you get to use one of your best skills plus your power bonuses.

Is is power bonuses? I've never been sure if it was that or if it was control bonuses.

I don't think so. The ceiling on spellcaster power is already very high, and the risk of running out of juice is part of what gives evocation its personality.

Good point. The only character that I can think of in the books that would have this power would be the Archive, so it should probably just be treated as a plot device thing.

What do you think about importing the combat wizard stunt from Dresden Files Accelerated, which gives you two extra stress boxes for the purposes of spellcasting?

[Sanctaphrax]

Is is power bonuses? I've never been sure if it was that or if it was control bonuses.

Book says power. Makes sense, given that you're using Conviction.

What do you think about importing the combat wizard stunt from Dresden Files Accelerated, which gives you two extra stress boxes for the purposes of spellcasting?

Not a fan. I remember someone homebrewing a power giving +1 box per refresh spent, which seems like a fairer deal to me.

A stunt giving two stress boxes seems a fair bit better than Inhuman Mental Toughness or the two mild consequences that YS says a stunt can give you for a specific purpose.

[nadia.skylark]

A stunt giving two stress boxes seems a fair bit better than Inhuman Mental Toughness or the two mild consequences that YS says a stunt can give you for a specific purpose.

I thought that Inhuman Mental Toughness gave two stress boxes plus armor:1? And the stress boxes for a combat magic stunt would be limited to only magic, rather than anything else.

And if you can get two mild consequences, isn't that the equivalent of 4 stress boxes for the cost of minor problems sticking around for a scene?

[Sanctaphrax]

Thing is, Inhuman Mental Toughness costs twice as much as a stunt.

Two mild consequences can absorb two 2-stress hits or a single 4-stress hit. Two additional stress boxes added to a track four boxes long can absorb a 5-stress hit and a 6-stress hit.

[nadia.skylark]

Thing is, Inhuman Mental Toughness costs twice as much as a stunt. Two mild consequences can absorb two 2-stress hits or a single 4-stress hit. Two additional stress boxes added to a track four boxes long can absorb a 5-stress hit and a 6-stress hit.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Inhuman Mental Toughness comes with two benefits, for two refresh. I would assume that the stress boxes are worth slightly more than one refresh, while the armor is worth slightly less than one refresh.

However, as I understood the combat magic stunt, it would not add stress boxes to the end of the mental stress track, but would create another stress track two boxes long. Furthermore, this stress track's uses are much more limited, because it's only for magic. Therefore, it would be worth slightly less than one refresh worth of powers, which works out because stunts are supposed to be slightly weaker than the equivalent refresh of powers.

[Sanctaphrax]

For a spellcaster, the stress boxes are far far more important than the armour. I don't think removing the armour should affect the Power's Refresh cost at all.

I don't have DFA open in front of me, and I'm not gonna try and tell you how its stunts work. But creating a whole new stress track seems like a bad way to implement such an effect into DFRPG. It's messy. Does help with the balance issues, but it introduces problems of its own.

[nadia.skylark]

Can you help me by explaining how important the mental stress track is to a caster? On this thread, you've said that it's a huge deal to add extra boxes; but on another thread, you've said that an extra benefit that allowed you to clear your mental stress track (effectively adding extra boxes) was too weak. I'm confused, and I feel like I'm misunderstanding something.

Also, I'm going back to the "cast low-level spells for free" power, because while I agree that it's a plot device kind of power, I'm trying to stat out the progression of a character from apprentice wizard to Kemmler-level plot device. I still want all the powers I give my character to be reasonable individually, however (the point is to stop my character from becoming a Mary Sue by regulating her power gain). So, would the power be more reasonable if you had to double the usual discipline role to cast spells without stress (and your spells still couldn't have more power than your conviction), the way you have to double the normal rolls you need to cast spells without words? And if so, how much would it cost?

[Sanctaphrax]

Can you help me by explaining how important the mental stress track is to a caster? On this thread, you've said that it's a huge deal to add extra boxes; but on another thread, you've said that an extra benefit that allowed you to clear your mental stress track (effectively adding extra boxes) was too weak. I'm confused, and I feel like I'm misunderstanding something.

Important. It's hard to draw equivalences to other abilities, but I think a 1-Refresh-per-box rule of thumb works pretty well. And that seems to be what Evil Hat uses as well.

I don't remember saying that; it sounds wrong, but maybe I had a good reason. Or maybe I was just being dumb.

So, would the power be more reasonable if you had to double the usual discipline role to cast spells without stress (and your spells still couldn't have more power than your conviction), the way you have to double the normal rolls you need to cast spells without words? And if so, how much would it cost?

Would the Discipline roll also be halved in effect?

Like, if you wanted to cast a 5-power attack spell and you got a 9, presumably you'd have to take a shift of backlash or fallout. But would the to-hit roll be a 4, a 5, or a 9?

If the roll is halved in effect as well, I think you could get away with it as a 1-Refresh Power. Halving is a pretty huge penalty.

Of course, as long as you're halving things, it might make sense just to halve the power as well instead of capping it at Conviction.

[nadia.skylark]

Important. It's hard to draw equivalences to other abilities, but I think a 1-Refresh-per-box rule of thumb works pretty well. And that seems to be what Evil Hat uses as well.

Thanks!

I don't remember saying that; it sounds wrong, but maybe I had a good reason. Or maybe I was just being dumb.

It was in the thread on Mirror sponsored magic. Re-reading it, what you actually said was that clearing stress just wasn't much of a thing in this system, and I interpreted it.

Would the Discipline roll also be halved in effect?

Yes.

If the roll is halved in effect as well, I think you could get away with it as a 1-Refresh Power. Halving is a pretty huge penalty.

Thanks!

Of course, as long as you're halving things, it might make sense just to halve the power as well instead of capping it at Conviction.

It's more a narrative thing. Using magic usually deals stress, and the more you use, the more stress you have to deal with. I think it makes more sense that, in order to avoid getting stress, you have to limit how much power you call and keep it under better control; rather than call more power and just control it normally, but have it just be less effective.