Is there anything Mab can't command Harry to do? (Getting out of the WK idea.)

[KurtinStGeorge]

In "Changes," Harry tells Mab he will become the Winter Knight if she heals him so he can rescue his daughter and "give me your word that you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love."  So I'm not talking about that caveat in their agreement.

I want to know if anyone on the forum who has read about the mythology of the fae knows of something, anything the fae aren't allowed to do to, or ask of mortals, even if it isn't specifically about Mab or any of the fae with names that might signify Mab.  I have this odd idea how Harry might get out of the Winter Knight gig.

When Harry agrees to be the Winter Knight Mab says to him, "Once you are my Knight, once this last quest of yours is complete, you are mine. You will destroy what I wish you to destroy. Kill whatsoever I wish you to kill. You will be mine, blood, bone, and breath. Do you understand this?"  That sounds awfully complete, but the term "blood, bone, and breath" sounds more like a term of art; Mab bragging about being Harry's new boss, rather than an actual terms that he must fulfill.  It seems to me the destroying and killing part are the crucial orders Harry has to carry out.  Plus, I find it more than just odd that Harry doesn't automatically get to learn Winter Law or have an easily obtainable source; like a book or tutor, to learn it from.  It's almost like Mab doesn't want Harry to know anymore about Winter Law than she needs him to know.

So I'm thinking, what if Mab really wants Harry to do something, but it's not something he's obligated to do as the Winter Knight.  If Harry thinks he has to do Mab's bidding, it doesn't matter, he does the job, Mab is happy and (if he survives) Harry remains the Winter Knight.  However, if Harry learns that Winter Law doesn't apply to this particular job, he could say, "I will do it as a favor Mab, if you ask me."  Then; if Mab is forced to ask Harry to do this task as a favor, I think Harry's old deal with Mab supersedes the current one.  As a reminder that deal goes like this; "From time to time, I will make a request of you. When you have fulfilled three requests, your obligation to me ceases."  I don't think there was anything said when Harry became the Winter Knight that nullifies that.   

I think many of us have had the thought that if Harry finds a way out of the Winter Knight job, Mab can still ask one more favor of him.  That not only seems logical, it's something we can all predict will happen.  If I'm right about why Harry doesn't have an easy way to learn Winter Law, then not only is the idea that Harry might be able to turn the tables on Mab a viable one, it's something Jim might want to do in order to subvert our expectations, but do so in a good way.  (Not like we have seen in a once uber popular, now crippled, maybe dying movie franchise that I will not name.)   

[Mira]

I think there is a loop hole and while she can command him to do anything she cannot force him to do
everything she commands.  I believe both Eb at the end of Changes and Uriel at the end of Ghost Story told him that but I need to go back and read the exact quotes.

[morriswalters]

In Summer Knight Mab makes Harry stab himself in the hand to make a point.  Should she choose to do so she can run him like a meat puppet.

[Mira]

In Summer Knight Mab makes Harry stab himself in the hand to make a point.  Should she choose to do so she can run him like a meat puppet.

However at that point Harry didn't have full understanding he believes that she can make him do anything.  That is why he suicided in the first place with a little nudging from Lasciel..

But here is what Eb told him in Changes page426 hardback

"She might lean on you pretty hard.  Try to put you in a box you don't want to be in.  But don't let her. She cannot take away your will.  Even if she can make it seem that way.  He sighed again, but that's the one thing the dark beings and powers can't do.  Take away your ability to choose.  They can kill you.  They can make you do things---but they can't make you chooseto do'em.  They almost always try to lie to you about that.  Don't fall for it."

Here is what Uriel said in Ghost Story page 475  The famous seven words..

A voice---a very calm, very gentle, very rational voice whispered in my ear, "Lies, Mab cannot change who you are."

Further down on the same page Harry says to Mab;

"No," I said then, weakly.  "No.  Maybe I'm your knight.  But I'm not yours."

So yeah, perhaps Mab can command Harry to do anything she wants, however she cannot force him to do any of it, it is still his choice.  It seems to be a matter of will, and as we know Harry has few equals or superiors when it comes to that..  He defeated the shadow of one Fallen that way, is Mab stronger than a fallen angel? 

[nadia.skylark]

So yeah, perhaps Mab can command Harry to do anything she wants, however she cannot force him to do any of it, it is still his choice.

I think the issue is that Mab can force him to do things, but she can't force him to choose to do them, and it's the choice that is important. At least, that was what I understood from the end of Ghost Story.

Given Mab's limitations and the reason why the faerie Knights exist, however, I doubt that Mab could force Harry to kill a mortal unassociated with the Courts or outright lie. That might be a way for Harry to fulfill his third favor to Mab, but on the other hand I have a hard time thinking of a situation where Mab would need to force Harry to lie outright or where Harry would refuse to kill someone as Mab's Knight but would do so to fulfill a favor.

The answer may end up lying in Mab's promise not to order him to harm anyone he loves after all--if Elaine is infected with Nemesis, for instance, Mab would want her dead but could not command Harry to kill her.

[Mira]

The answer may end up lying in Mab's promise not to order him to harm anyone he loves after all--if Elaine is infected with Nemesis, for instance, Mab would want her dead but could not command Harry to kill her.

  However knowing the Enemy, Harry may choose to kill her if he cannot cure her. 

Given Mab's limitations and the reason why the faerie Knights exist, however, I doubt that Mab could force Harry to kill a mortal unassociated with the Courts or outright lie.

Yes, she can.  As Eb said

They can make you do things---but they can't make you choose to do'em.  They almost always try to lie to you about that.  Don't fall for it."

So yes, like she forced him to pierce his hand on the mail spike, she can force him to do anything..  However it is still Harry's choice whether or not to follow her orders, but there are consequences if he refuses...  Mab actually respects that,  it is a quality she hasn't had in her knight in a very very long time..  Not saying it makes her happy, or that she won't kill Harry for refusing or more likely make him wish he were dead for choosing not to follow her command, but she respects him for it.

[nadia.skylark]

However knowing the Enemy, Harry may choose to kill her if he cannot cure her.

Exactly. It is something Harry would agree to if Mab made it her third favor, but not something she could order Harry to do as her knight.

Yes, she can.

I'm not convinced of that. While I agree that she can force him to do most things, I think forcing him to try and kill a mortal unaffiliated with the Courts might be like when Aurora's plant construct tried to attack Murphy--because Murphy was someone Aurora couldn't kill, her construct couldn't either. I'm reasonably convinced that Mab taking control of Harry's body like she did with the letter opener would be the same thing.

[Kindler]

The "blood, bone, and breath" statement, I think, is supposed to parallel, "mind, body, and soul," except it actually just means, "body, body, body." Harry's mind and soul are still his own, as shown in Ghost Story by a certain archangel (and, you know, Harry doing his thing on his own during his soul walkabout).

The lesson from Uriel, which Harry immediately chucks back into Mab's face, is that Mab would have to control his body physically if she wanted to control his every movement, which would obviate his will. That brings me to Cold Days, during which Harry begins to use raw willpower more directly than ever. For example, he broke Mother Winter's "shackles," which were wrought with her own will. I think, at the level Harry is playing now, Mab wouldn't be able to directly puppet Harry anymore, or at least not for long. I think it's one reason Mab went out of her way to manipulate Harry into cooperating with Nicodemus in Skin Game (isolating him, waiting until the last possible moment to tell him about the parasite, etc.) Essentially, Mab makes another deal with Harry to get him to do it (though it probably isn't a Deal in strict Fae terms).

Anyway, I'm not sure about the details of Winter Law and whether or not Harry could find a loophole in the agreement to fulfill the Third Service and weasel out of being the Winter Knight. The only stipulations Harry makes are that his body is restored to health, he's given enough time and power to rescue his daughter and get her to safety, and Mab never commands him to "lift [a] hand against those [he] loves." The exact word "command" might be tricky enough alone to weasel out of the deal. For example, if Mab commands Harry to kill Murphy in vengeance for her part in killing Maeve, Harry might be able to use that as a way out of the deal, even if he doesn't actually kill her.

Mab also might've dealt in bad faith from the start, depending upon the mechanism she used to heal Harry's back. Welching on Winter Law, for some reason, temporarily paralyzed him again; Harry's exact words were "before my service begins," which may mean before he accepts the Winter Knight's Mantle. So he should not need the Mantle to still use his legs. On the other hand, if Mab interpreted it as "before I give you your first command," or something, then it's still technically accurate enough for Fae purposes.

I'm not sure about what else Mab might order Harry to do. Traditionally, in Deal with the Devil tropes, someone will make a bargain in exchange for completing a task that's impossible, and use some alternate win condition to accomplish it.

Personally, I think Harry is just going to get strong enough to change "masks," as VaderrIngle puts it. Harry won't stop being the Winter Knight; he'll simply become something else. Lord of the Little Folk or something, maybe.

[Bad Alias]

Jim has explicitly said that the deal to become the Winter Knight supersedes the three favor deal. He said that same deal initially offered to Harry to become Winter Knight was the deal made in Changes.

However, the books do not say this. The deal Harry made in Changes has completely different consideration than the first Winter Knight deal. Mab never mentions the earlier deal. There is no "I'll throw in saving your daughter as a kicker." Harry says I'll be your Knight if you give me the power and knowledge to save my daughter, and I get to be me at least until it's done, and Mab will never order him to raise a hand against, or whatever the phrasing was, his loved ones. (Note it doesn't say anything about the Lady or Mother or even a different Queen).

If we were to apply the English common law or most modern contract law based on it, both the three favor and Changes Winter Knight deal would be in place.

Now, Mab would be smart to keep both deals in place. If Harry somehow gets out of being the Winter Knight, she still has a favor left. If she needs Harry to kill a loved one, as mentioned earlier, she has leverage. Remember, Harry has killed a loved one at least once, maybe twice. It's hard to say whether he still loved Justin.

Personally, I think Harry is just going to get strong enough to change "masks," as VaderrIngle puts it. Harry won't stop being the Winter Knight; he'll simply become something else. Lord of the Little Folk or something, maybe.

I think something like this is more likely than Harry somehow getting clear of being Winter Knight. Perhaps he picks up another mantle, so he can step out of one into the other, or he simply learns how to put the Winter Knight mantle on a shelf until needed.

[nadia.skylark]

Jim has explicitly said that the deal to become the Winter Knight supersedes the three favor deal. He said that same deal initially offered to Harry to become Winter Knight was the deal made in Changes.

However, the books do not say this. The deal Harry made in Changes has completely different consideration than the first Winter Knight deal. Mab never mentions the earlier deal. There is no "I'll throw in saving your daughter as a kicker." Harry says I'll be your Knight if you give me the power and knowledge to save my daughter, and I get to be me at least until it's done, and Mab will never order him to raise a hand against, or whatever the phrasing was, his loved ones. (Note it doesn't say anything about the Lady or Mother or even a different Queen).

If we were to apply the English common law or most modern contract law based on it, both the three favor and Changes Winter Knight deal would be in place.

Here's the WoJ:

Now, prior to Cold Days Dresden still owes Mab one favour, does he still owe her that favour or did the events of Cold Days make up for his obligation?
Technically yeah, he still kind of owes her that one favour, but on the other hand, he also sort of owes her his complete loyalty, devotion and obedience so the extra favour is, you know, it’s like “yeah okay, he also does have a hand grenade in his hand while he’s sitting on top of a nuke that’s about to go off”, so you know, technically she could probably mess with that if he somehow got out of being the knight, But uh, generally speaking that didn’t just get wiped away, Mab keeps very good books and that’s not something that’s going to be, she does not let things slide, it does not happen.

So it sounds like both deals are still in effect, it's just that the Winter Knight deal is so much bigger that the three favors deal is mostly irrelevant (outside specific circumstances that we're discussing).

[exartiem]

Harry put Mab in her place in Cold Days by telling her that if she forced him, he would obey her.  He stated that he would do exactly what she ordered and not one iota more.  It turns out she didn't like this idea.  Mab would be costing herself and ally in favor of just another servant.

She could make him do anything, physically.  The question is whether she is willing to accept the consequences of doing so.

[peregrine]

Yeah, Mab has that last deal going on where if she requests something of him and he does it, that's it.

Of course, now that he's Winter Knight, she doesn't have to request anything of him, she can just outright command it.

Of course, once he inevitably gets out of Winter Knighthood, there's that third favor he still owes her.

[nadia.skylark]

Of course, now that he's Winter Knight, she doesn't have to request anything of him, she can just outright command it.

Well, she can't command anything. We know she can't command him to harm those he loves, and I've theorized that there are commands that he can refuse without Mab even having the option to force him to obey (namely, killing people unaffiliated with the Courts and outright lying).

Does anyone else have ideas for things Mab can't command him to do, or things she can't try to force him to do if he refuses her command?

[groinkick]

I don't think she can command Harry to use wizard magic.  I believe she can control his physical body, and use of Winter ice magic.  Wizard magic requires real belief to do.  So Harry would become no different than any other Winter Knight, losing his value to Mab.

There could be one thing that gives Harry more free will.  The Fallen's words that lead to Harry becoming the Winter Knight, and having Kincaid shoot him, caused his lack of free will.  To balance the scales, Uriel gave his free will back.  Harry, unlike other Winter Knights may have a form of angelic protection from Mab's total control over him.  But I'm not sure.  Even Harry admitted that Mab could make him a meat puppet but it would make him virtually useless to her.

[Bad Alias]

Here's the WoJ:
So it sounds like both deals are still in effect, it's just that the Winter Knight deal is so much bigger that the three favors deal is mostly irrelevant (outside specific circumstances that we're discussing).

I was talking about a quote where Jim was talking about the third favor ending his obligation to Mab. I might be wrong, and that never happened, but Jim does contradict himself. For example, he said that Harry could perform the Darkhallow because he looked at Kemmler's book with his Sight. That's not what happened. Also, Jim has said he has lied. If he plans of Harry getting out of his deal by Mab asking a favor, someone asks him about it, then he might throw out some disinformation.