If magic has to obey the laws of physics, how does shapeshifting work?

[Dagroth]

In various places in the books, Harry claimed that the magic has to follow the laws of physics (last time I saw it was in "Changes", that I'm currently reading) - we have seen examples too, like in "White Night", where he took the heat from the lake, created an enormous fire, and as a result, froze the lake's water (on the surface, anyway).

So, if that's the case, during the Listens-to-Wind's shapeshifting duel with Shagnasty, where did he either get the extra matter/mass from (when changing into a "bear the size of a minibus"), or where did it go to (when he changed into a raven, turtle, or a squirrel) ?

I suppose for the former, he could draw/create the matter from Never Never or something? But what about turning into all those small animals?

[nadia.skylark]

I think during Skin Game Harry realizes that the way you shapeshift into a larger form is by drawing matter from the Nevernever, and I think there's a WoJ that the way you shapeshift into something smaller is by sending some of your mass to the Nevernever.

[Bad Alias]

This is correct.

[Mr. Death]

The same explanation is offered in the RPG books as well, with the addendum that if you're shifting into something significantly smaller, you may also have to store some of your mind in the Nevernever otherwise it won't fit in your now-mouse-sized brain.

The game advises glossing over this for the most part.

[Yuillegan]

Interestingly, this is partly because of what Harry BELIEVES. There is a WOJ about how magic essentially is Will combined with Power, and with enough of both you could reshape reality completely. Which is essentially what any magic user does, they are subverting their Will over the natural world, and using their Power to fund the change.

As their is a whole thing about how magic is what you believe, I think Harry is rather limited by his own beliefs, and could accomplish far more if he understood that. He might not have the Power to back it up, but he might still be able to achieve more unusual results.

Essentially the WOJ is anytime he can't figure a good enough explanation for why magic works with physics, he has the Nevernever as his cheat card.

I also believe this is why you go mad/have to be mad to mess with time, kill with magic etc. You have to believe in complete violations of the Laws of Reality.

[Bad Alias]

There is a WOJ about how magic essentially is Will combined with Power, and with enough of both you could reshape reality completely.

If my recollection (and interpretation) is correct, Jim has quibbled about this.

[Dagroth]

I also believe this is why you go mad/have to be mad to mess with time, kill with magic etc. You have to believe in complete violations of the Laws of Reality.

How is killing someone with magic violating the Laws of Reality more than say, blowing up the building? To me, both seem equally "impossible", if you want to apply, let's call it "atheist" way of thinking (as in, "Magic does not exist!") and equally possible otherwise.

I think I've read somewhere, that it's the "slippery slope", that's a problem, evil (be it killing, or manipulating minds, or other stuff) gets easier, and eventually you find yourself a warlock (like with the guy who was executed early on in "Proven Guilty", or like how Harry explains why messing with people's minds using magic is said slippery slope, also in "Proven Guilty").

Plus (I think) it only seems to apply to humans for some reason - in "Changes", Harry flattened probably at least a few dozen of Blood Court vampires (by the end, when he did the gravity trick), without, as far as I can tell, any mental consequences.

Not to mention destroying the whole Red Court later on...

(well, unless there are consequences later on, and I just didn't get there yet)

Though I now wonder, if Winter Knight's Mantle had anything to do with it. Still in "Changes", I recall it showing Harry a mind-image of (I think) Rudolph frozen to the wall, or maybe impaled on some massive icicles. It didn't seem to have any actual control over him (so far?), but maybe it does some subtle influence, kind of like Lasciel's shadow did? (but don't tell me, I want to read about it for myself)

[Talby16]

Harry previously adhered to the tenet of mass is neither created or destroyed. He thought that all shapeshifting was altering the body's shape, but with the mass either being compressed or expanded not changed. Seeing Gray shift into a horse made him change his mind. See the following quote from Skin Game:

Shapeshifting I could deal with, but Grey had done something more significant than that—he’d altered his freaking mass. Rearranging a body with magic, sure, I basically knew how that worked. You just moved things around, but the mass always remained the same. Granted, I’d seen Ursiel shift into his bear form and add oodles of mass, so I knew it could be done somehow, but I’d figured that was maybe a Fallen angel thing. Though that didn’t make sense, either. I’d seen Listens-to-Wind reduce his mass pretty significantly in a shapeshifting war with a naagloshii, but I’d figured he had managed to make some materials denser and heavier, crowding the same mass into a smaller area

[Mr. Death]

How is killing someone with magic violating the Laws of Reality more than say, blowing up the building? To me, both seem equally "impossible", if you want to apply, let's call it "atheist" way of thinking (as in, "Magic does not exist!") and equally possible otherwise.

Buildings don't have souls or free will.

[nadia.skylark]

How is killing someone with magic violating the Laws of Reality more than say, blowing up the building? To me, both seem equally "impossible", if you want to apply, let's call it "atheist" way of thinking (as in, "Magic does not exist!") and equally possible otherwise.

I think I've read somewhere, that it's the "slippery slope", that's a problem, evil (be it killing, or manipulating minds, or other stuff) gets easier, and eventually you find yourself a warlock (like with the guy who was executed early on in "Proven Guilty", or like how Harry explains why messing with people's minds using magic is said slippery slope, also in "Proven Guilty").

The way I understand it is that Laws 1-5 have the slippery slope problem, while Laws 6-7 are the "No! You'll break the universe!" laws.

[Yuillegan]

If my recollection (and interpretation) is correct, Jim has quibbled about this.

What do you mean? The WOJs I was referring mostly talk in the broader sense by Uber-powerful beings. Not really someone at Harry's level.

How is killing someone with magic violating the Laws of Reality more than say, blowing up the building? To me, both seem equally "impossible", if you want to apply, let's call it "atheist" way of thinking (as in, "Magic does not exist!") and equally possible otherwise.

I think I've read somewhere, that it's the "slippery slope", that's a problem, evil (be it killing, or manipulating minds, or other stuff) gets easier, and eventually you find yourself a warlock (like with the guy who was executed early on in "Proven Guilty", or like how Harry explains why messing with people's minds using magic is said slippery slope, also in "Proven Guilty").

Plus (I think) it only seems to apply to humans for some reason - in "Changes", Harry flattened probably at least a few dozen of Blood Court vampires (by the end, when he did the gravity trick), without, as far as I can tell, any mental consequences.

Not sure why it is more violating myself, that is more or less what Jim has written though. He made 7 very specific Laws for his reality, though oddly not specific enough (why it matters more when magic affects mortals than others). I think Mr Death has it right though, there is likely a spiritual element to why it is considered more of a major violation. I could probably wax lyrical about how messing with Time is such a messed up idea in the first place, or necromancy but I think the most straightforward answer is because that's how Jim has written it. He has created a magical system that means certain actions, certain elements have specific properties (i.e. dark magic) that make them intrinsically worse than regular magic. After all, Wizards don't seem to go any madder for burning buildings or using thaumaturgy than outright killing another Mortal or breaking into their minds. I think the main key is that Mortals are special, they have Free Will and so can write their own destinies (should they so choose). Subverting their minds takes away their choice, as does murder, rewriting time etc. This changes the universe (unmaking whole alternate universes etc). A big hint is when Harry talks to the Angel of Death and it challenges him that who is it to unmake choice and all it's possibilities by intervening with Father Forthill's incumbent death.

I think Dark magic has addictive, drug like qualities for some as-yet unexplained reason (likely to do with its source).

The way I understand it is that Laws 1-5 have the slippery slope problem, while Laws 6-7 are the "No! You'll break the universe!" laws.

All of it is addictive - pretty sure it's all considered Dark Magic. Though I do agree that the major laws e.g. Time, Necromancy and reaching Outside are all of a distinctively more terrible to Reality quality - but I am sure we will not know until we understand why it all came about in the first place.

[Bad Alias]

What do you mean? The WOJs I was referring mostly talk in the broader sense by Uber-powerful beings. Not really someone at Harry's level.

I mean I remember Jim saying something along those lines, but also remember him saying other things that contradict it.