Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?

[Mira]

It's one thing for Susan and Harry to say, let's have a child, and then plan for that.  It's an all together different thing to have a child by accident. In Harry and Susan's case, she is a half turned vampire involved in a guerilla war and Harry is a wizard who has been attacked multiple times at his home.  It is so dangerous for the child, that Susan fosters her out.  Before everything is said and done, the foster family is brutally murdered.  And perhaps hundreds are killed at CI as the Reds prepare the curse. 

Child by accident is neither here nor there....  It happens every day,  then the best is made of it... I don't agree with Susan's decisions as to not telling Harry etc., though appearing rational on the surface, from her attitude when she told him the origin sounded more like bitterness, not for getting pregnant so much as her situation which is another story... However having said that, let's not blame the victims here... It was the Red King who did the kidnapping and the murdering, not Harry or Susan....  What is more it was Eb he was trying to kill in revenge, not Harry..  It was Martin who was playing double agent in the first place and let the Red King know where little Maggie was... 

[morriswalters]

@nadia.skylark
Think about what you wrote.  Both parties are warned about just this thing multiple times over the course of the story line.  Practically speaking, trying to apportion blame to them separately is  foolish. 

@Mira

However having said that, let's not blame the victims here

It kinda puts the lie to "With great power, comes great responsibility.", don't ya think?

[nadia.skylark]

Think about what you wrote.  Both parties are warned about just this thing multiple times over the course of the story line.  Practically speaking, trying to apportion blame to them separately is  foolish. 

I have thought about what I wrote. From what I understand of what you've said, you are saying that Harry bears responsibility for what happened due to him having a daughter because he was careless about birth control. What I am saying is that even though he was careless, things would not have happened the way they did if Harry had known about his daughter. Therefore, more blame should be apportioned to the person who made the decision not to tell him than to the people being careless, because the carelessness was only a small part of the issue.

[Mira]

It kinda puts the lie to "With great power, comes great responsibility.", don't ya think?

Perhaps you need to go back to the scene when this all happened in the first place?   Maybe it should all go under the heading of unplanned sex, sub-heading, unplanned sex when you are not thinking straight, i.e. wounded, almost killed, drunken by vamp venom,  sub-sub-heading of having unplanned sex with someone you truly love who you haven't seen in ages who could kill you during the sex act....   The thought of birth control apparently was way down the list for both parties...   I don't recall Susan asking or insisting on Harry wearing a condom, nor Harry replying with the line that his pleasure is better if he doesn't wear anything, nor her refusing sex if he didn't.. Nor him asking her if she was on the pill or wearing any device for birth control, nor refusing to do anything if she wasn't..  Looks to me like the irresponsibility was mutual..

[TrueMonk]

I think I can go so far as to say that if you are not ready to have kids, you should make sure you don't have any. So the parents are responsible for harm that comes to the kid and harm that comes from the kid. For example if Maggie had turned warlock. Also following your great power great responsibility argument.
But at any point in Harry's life from now and untill he is dead he will have dangerous enemies. Does that mean he should never have kids? Should Ebenezer (or any other combat active wizard) never have had any?

[morriswalters]

I am not apportioning culpability, I'm making a moral statement.  Both Harry and Susan, by the precepts that Harry espouses, should have maintained a higher standard.  In sports they would call Maggie an unforced error.  Harry has powerful enemies and the very act of being around him puts you at hazard.  He can't afford to be the guy that forgets to put on a raincoat because of a little vampire venom.

I think I can go so far as to say that if you are not ready to have kids, you should make sure you don't have any. So the parents are responsible for harm that comes to the kid and harm that comes from the kid. For example if Maggie had turned warlock. Also following your great power great responsibility argument.
But at any point in Harry's life from now and untill he is dead he will have dangerous enemies. Does that mean he should never have kids? Should Ebenezer (or any other combat active wizard) never have had any?

That's impossible to say, each individual has to make that decision.  But if you make a conscious choice to have a child, you will at least be able to plan for the risks, as far as is possible.

[Avernite]

I am not apportioning culpability, I'm making a moral statement.  Both Harry and Susan, by the precepts that Harry espouses, should have maintained a higher standard.  In sports they would call Maggie an unforced error.  Harry has powerful enemies and the very act of being around him puts you at hazard.  He can't afford to be the guy that forgets to put on a raincoat because of a little vampire venom.

Calling Maggie an unforced error seems to be a rather strong judgement by itself. You might (to stick with the sports analogies) also call her a lucky goal instead.

[Mira]

I am not apportioning culpability, I'm making a moral statement.  Both Harry and Susan, by the precepts that Harry espouses, should have maintained a higher standard.  In sports they would call Maggie an unforced error.  Harry has powerful enemies and the very act of being around him puts you at hazard.  He can't afford to be the guy that forgets to put on a raincoat because of a little vampire venom.That's impossible to say, each individual has to make that decision.  But if you make a conscious choice to have a child, you will at least be able to plan for the risks, as far as is possible.

Under normal circumstances you wouldn't get much argument... But Maggie wasn't conceived under normal circumstances.. Harry was wounded, the scent of his blood aroused Susan's hunger both for Harry's blood and sex... In turn her venom had a hypnotic effect on Harry sexually arousing him, not to the point where he was about to totally surrender his life for sex, but he wasn't in any shape to fight it either..  Do not project rational or moral judgement onto this scene, it isn't fair..   

[morriswalters]

Calling Maggie an unforced error seems to be a rather strong judgement by itself. You might (to stick with the sports analogies) also call her a lucky goal instead.

Unless you of course were the foster parents and their children.

Do not project rational or moral judgement onto this scene, it isn't fair.   

All right. 

[TrueMonk]

I dont think we will get any further in regards to Maggie.
But in regards to Diedre/Susan symmetry. As I remember it Harry also lied by indicating she would be protected from the knife by her fairy armor, even though he she would not be. That does sound a bit like Nic saying the enemy cannot get you here.

[nadia.skylark]

But in regards to Diedre/Susan symmetry. As I remember it Harry also lied by indicating she would be protected from the knife by her fairy armor, even though he she would not be. That does sound a bit like Nic saying the enemy cannot get you here.

Definitely

[peregrine]

That does sound a bit like Nic saying the enemy cannot get you here.

For that, I chalk it up to Nic just being wrong.  Harry bought what Nic said as well, before it was corrected for him, Deirdre most likely had much the same information Nic did, she was a true believer from everything we saw, and could very well have gone along with it even if she had known better.  I figure he really did think that she wouldn't be punished for all the horrors that she committed.

[nadia.skylark]

For that, I chalk it up to Nic just being wrong.  Harry bought what Nic said as well, before it was corrected for him, Deirdre most likely had much the same information Nic did, she was a true believer from everything we saw, and could very well have gone along with it even if she had known better.  I figure he really did think that she wouldn't be punished for all the horrors that she committed.

That seems extraordinarily unlikely. The Greek myths are not exactly unknown even today, and given that when Nicodemus was alive the Greek/Roman pantheon was being actively worshipped...

[Mira]

For that, I chalk it up to Nic just being wrong.  Harry bought what Nic said as well, before it was corrected for him, Deirdre most likely had much the same information Nic did, she was a true believer from everything we saw, and could very well have gone along with it even if she had known better.  I figure he really did think that she wouldn't be punished for all the horrors that she committed.

Yes, include the Fallen that inhabited the coin she held as well...  To it she was no different that any other host to be used until he or she died.  It apparently knew or counted on somehow turning up again to be picked up by another host...

But in regards to Diedre/Susan symmetry. As I remember it Harry also lied by indicating she would be protected from the knife by her fairy armor, even though he she would not be. That does sound a bit like Nic saying the enemy cannot get you here.

Does he say that?  Because it wasn't her armor that failed her, after Susan turned her throat was cut, that wasn't protected by armor, nor if I remember correctly was she wounded through her armor before she turned.

[morriswalters]

Here is the passage  with Susan. 

I focused my thoughts and sent them to Susan. Susan! Think! Who knew who the baby’s father was? Who could have told them?
Her lips peeled away from her teeth.

His knife can’t hurt you, I thought, though I knew damned well that no faerie magic could blithely ignore the touch of steel.

“Martin,” Susan said, her voice low and very quiet. “Did you tell them about Maggie?”
He closed his eyes, but his voice was steady. “Yes.”

Susan Rodriguez lost her mind.

One instant she was a prisoner, and the next she had twisted like an eel, too swiftly to be easily seen. Martin’s machete opened up a long cut on her throat, but she paid as little attention to it as a thorn scratch gained while hiking.

Martin raised a hand to block the strike he thought was coming—and it was useless, because Susan didn’t go after him swinging.

Instead, her eyes full of darkness and rage, her mouth opened in a scream that showed her extended fangs, she went for his throat.

Consider Nic's statement in it's context.  Whatever she might suffer under Hades, had she died anywhere else her fate would would have left her in the hands of the White God for judgement. And that judgement would be irrevocable and final.  On the other hand if Nic's plan would grant him the power to challenge Hades at some point he could have Deirdre back.