Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?

[Mira]

This makes no sense. It's Harry that didn't care about the consequences of his actions, not Nicodemus. The difference between Nicodemus and Harry is the difference between first degree murder and 2nd/3rd degree murder (I'll look up legal codes when I'm not in class).

Planning is everything....   That what Death Masks is all about, Nic knew very well what he was going
to bring about, and he had goals...   Yes, and this is why context is very important, forgive my poor spelling, but it doesn't change what I said... Also one tends to say a lot of things when one is upset or frustrated...

One might have been said in the emotion of the moment....  Let the world burn, I am going to do what I need to do to save my daughter...  However I do like the world and I do care for the people like Molly who live in it.. However I am upset..

Let the world burn because I really don't care about it and if little Maggie inherits ashes that's perfectly fine...

Let the world burn because I really hate it and want it to burn, saving my daughter is a good excuse....

Saying,  "let the world burn," really murder?  Now giving an old man the plague so he might infect a whole city or worse could be considered, committing...  Is there a difference between saying and committing?   

[Mira]

IF Nicodemus was truly saving the world with the sacrifice of Deirdre, rather than merely furthering a quest to power, I would say he has a claim to it simply being one of those hard calls. Harder than Harry's sacrifice of Susan, sure, but what is one daughter against all the children that will ever be?

Oh I'd agree, but it is a matter of point of view isn't it?  Nic claims to be saving the world, but we have no clue as to what his vision of a saved world would be...   Despots have murdered for thousands of years and one of their common excuses for it is making the world safe....  The question then becomes for what or whom?

[nadia.skylark]

Planning is everything....

No, planning is one component. I can plan meticulously how to blow up the White House, but if I don't then do so then I have done nothing wrong.

That what Death Masks is all about, Nic knew very well what he was going
to bring about, and he had goals...

This is why what Nicodemus did is the equivalent of (attempted) first degree murder.

Yes, and this is why context is very important,

If it were important, you would have provided it. If you can't actually refute my argument, feel free to say so rather than bringing up specious and unsupported points.

forgive my poor spelling, but it doesn't change what I said...

I never claimed it did.

One might have been said in the emotion of the moment....  Let the world burn, I am going to do what I need to do to save my daughter...  However I do like the world and I do care for the people like Molly who live in it.. However I am upset..

Let the world burn because I really don't care about it and if little Maggie inherits ashes that's perfectly fine...

Let the world burn because I really hate it and want it to burn, saving my daughter is a good excuse....

Saying,  "let the world burn," really murder? Now giving an old man the plague so he might infect a whole city or worse could be considered, committing...  Is there a difference between saying and committing?   

If all he did was say it, no. The issue is that he said "let the world burn," and then followed through on that.

[peregrine]

But later, we see the difference between "let the world burn" and "let Molly burn."

He said that, and he did that, but that's because he was being an idiot without really thinking about what that would actually mean.

[morriswalters]

Cut to the chase.  Had Harry learned basic reproductive physiology there would have been no Maggie to have to rescue. This would be first cause.  If Susan had to die it was this choice, made by the two of them, that set it up.  Once there, given the setup, it would have been morally suspect if he hadn't killed Susan.

But later, we see the difference between "let the world burn" and "let Molly burn."

He said that, and he did that, but that's because he was being an idiot without really thinking about what that would actually mean.

Precisely!

[Mira]

But later, we see the difference between "let the world burn" and "let Molly burn."

He said that, and he did that, but that's because he was being an idiot without really thinking about what that would actually mean.

Precisely, amen...   Nor did he really act upon that...  What happened in the aftermath of C.I. wasn't because Harry really intended for the world to burn or failed to care if it did..  If anyone is to blame it is the Red King who set the whole thing up in the first place.  He never thought through the idea that both Harry and Eb were first rate wizards and if anyone one could foil his plans for revenge, they could.  Nor did he plan on the child's mother being there and willing to give up her life, which saved her child and wiped out the Red Court..  Also before this all went down there was no one warning Harry that if he succeeds in wiping out the Red Court some badder asses would step in to take up the slack.. 

Cut to the chase.  Had Harry learned basic reproductive physiology there would have been no Maggie to have to rescue. This would be first cause.  If Susan had to die it was this choice, made by the two of them, that set it up.  Once there, given the setup, it would have been morally suspect if he hadn't killed Susan.

Actually I believe he had, but to be fair between the vamp pheromone laced saliva that even half vamp Susan gave off at the time and his own physically weakened condition, plus the hots they still felt for one another, the manual on how to put on a condom kind of went out the window...   Like most sex, it was a mutual thing, Susan wasn't demanding protection either at that point... Though to be fair, she wasn't herself either because of the vamp influence...

[morriswalters]

They weren't two 16 year olds in back of the minivan.  That seven minutes cost one family everything, and almost destroyed Molly.  Not to mention all of the human sacrifices that took place to set up the ritual.  And if memory serves me correctly Harry had to plan to make a restraint that could hold Susan(Death Masks).  Something about unicorn hair.  Original idea courtesy of Molly, I believe, who suggests using handcuffs.  And Harry had nightmares that revolved around what might happen, thus the rope.

[nadia.skylark]

But later, we see the difference between "let the world burn" and "let Molly burn."

He said that, and he did that, but that's because he was being an idiot without really thinking about what that would actually mean.

Well, yes. But on the other hand, if it was the only way to save his daughter then I'm not remarkably convinced he wouldn't do the same again, so...

Precisely, amen...   Nor did he really act upon that...

What? He was told specifically that if he kept pushing this, he might cause a disaster, and then proceeded to keep pushing until he caused a disaster. How is that not acting upon what he said? He didn't say "I'm going to set out to destroy the world," he said, "I'm going to rescue my daughter no matter what the consequences are."

What happened in the aftermath of C.I. wasn't because Harry really intended for the world to burn or failed to care if it did..  If anyone is to blame it is the Red King who set the whole thing up in the first place.  He never thought through the idea that both Harry and Eb were first rate wizards and if anyone one could foil his plans for revenge, they could.  Nor did he plan on the child's mother being there and willing to give up her life, which saved her child and wiped out the Red Court..

Victim blaming much? The Red King is responsible for a lot of awful things, but I don't think we can legitimately say that he was 100% responsible for the genocide of his own species. I mean, Harry did have other options: both Susan and the Eebs pointed them out. He just objected to them.

Also before this all went down there was no one warning Harry that if he succeeds in wiping out the Red Court some badder asses would step in to take up the slack.. 

Um, yes there was. Harry's "let the world burn" thing was said directly in response to Murphy warning him that if he kept pushing then really bad things might happen. He might not have known the specifics, but he was warned as to the risks.

[forumghost]

Victim blaming much? The Red King is responsible for a lot of awful things, but I don't think we can legitimately say that he was 100% responsible for the genocide of his own species. I mean, Harry did have other options: both Susan and the Eebs pointed them out. He just objected to them.

I mean "Victim Blaming" seems like a questionable way to refer to someone having kidnapping a Girl and attempting to murder her entire family backfire on him.

And Harry's only other 'option' was to give up his daughter to the vampires and let them familicide him. What a great choice, I can't imagine why he didn't go for it.

Harry's plan at Chicken Pizza was to go out there, publicly call out Arianna to force a fight, kill her, take Maggie and go.

It was the Red King that forced his hand because "I R GR8 VMPYR, I NO NEED DEAL WID DRT WZRD!!!!!"

[nadia.skylark]

I mean "Victim Blaming" seems like a questionable way to refer to someone having kidnapping a Girl and attempting to murder her entire family backfire on him.

I'm not saying that what he did wasn't awful, just that he isn't the only one responsible for what happened: Arianna, Martin, Susan, and Harry all have some responsibility as well.

And Harry's only other 'option' was to give up his daughter to the vampires and let them familicide him. What a great choice, I can't imagine why he didn't go for it.

Susan pointed out in the beginning that Harry had enough allies to potentially force the Red King to return his daughter for a big enough bribe, and Harry didn't contradict her--he just objected to that option because he didn't want to pay the Red King off. (At least, this is how I remember it going. I don't have my book with me, so I can't check.)

[Mira]

They weren't two 16 year olds in back of the minivan.  That seven minutes cost one family everything, and almost destroyed Molly.  Not to mention all of the human sacrifices that took place to set up the ritual.  And if memory serves me correctly Harry had to plan to make a restraint that could hold Susan(Death Masks).  Something about unicorn hair.  Original idea courtesy of Molly, I believe, who suggests using handcuffs.  And Harry had nightmares that revolved around what might happen, thus the rope.

Yeah, he was afraid she'd eat him..  I agree they weren't sixteen, but do not underestimate the power of the vamp venom...  Fear of being killed trumps responsible birth control I think, so rope over condom..  No excuses though I agree, but age had nothing to do with it, lots of "adults" turn up pregnant.   I doubt that either one of them even thought of the possibility that she might get pregnant, it wasn't their first sexual encounter after all..  So either they were very lucky before she was half turned and went away, or at least one of them was being responsible.. 

[morriswalters]

This is a direct response to the moral claims and the idea of symmetry between Harry and Nic.  That people get get together and make babies is no surprise to me, but if you do it, then irrespective of why or how, you own it.  Everything that happens at Chichen Itza is on Harry and Susan.  Had there been no child, there could have been no blood curse as portrayed in the book.  At least Nic has a plan, however twisted it appears to be.

[TrueMonk]

I really do not understand the argument about the act of them having a baby meaning that they are responsible. So two people love each other. They get a baby. A horrible monster kidnaps the baby and wants to use it for a bloodline curse.

How does that become the parents fault? Yes there was some details in between with Harry not knowing he was a father and the kid not living with either of them. But how does it make them more responsible for the whole situation at C.I. than if they had been living together (Susan, Harry and Maggy in Chicago)? If it does not thenn by your arguments every parent who has their child kidnapped and used for a blood curse is somehow responsible?

Also I get that the ideal scenario would be to post quotes and page numbers to support theories and ideas. But I listen to the books. So if I had to do that I would just have to stop posting on the boards (or buy the books only for the purpose of posting here and that is not going to happen)

[morriswalters]

It's one thing for Susan and Harry to say, let's have a child, and then plan for that.  It's an all together different thing to have a child by accident. In Harry and Susan's case, she is a half turned vampire involved in a guerilla war and Harry is a wizard who has been attacked multiple times at his home.  It is so dangerous for the child, that Susan fosters her out.  Before everything is said and done, the foster family is brutally murdered.  And perhaps hundreds are killed at CI as the Reds prepare the curse. 

The events of the book were generally foreseeable. Not the bloodline curse specifically, but that the Reds would use the child in some fashion if they became aware of her.  Harry after the event hides her from the White Council for fear that they would use her as well.  And Harry has hid the fact of the existence of his brother for the same reasons.  Harry got careless about risks he was aware of and others had to pay.  That doesn't make him evil, but he can't escape the responsibility.

On the subject of page numbers and quotes, use them if you have them, but don't sweat it if you don't.  Do the best you can do and have fun.

[nadia.skylark]

It's one thing for Susan and Harry to say, let's have a child, and then plan for that.  It's an all together different thing to have a child by accident. In Harry and Susan's case, she is a half turned vampire involved in a guerilla war and Harry is a wizard who has been attacked multiple times at his home.  It is so dangerous for the child, that Susan fosters her out.  Before everything is said and done, the foster family is brutally murdered.  And perhaps hundreds are killed at CI as the Reds prepare the curse. 

The events of the book were generally foreseeable. Not the bloodline curse specifically, but that the Reds would use the child in some fashion if they became aware of her.  Harry after the event hides her from the White Council for fear that they would use her as well.  And Harry has hid the fact of the existence of his brother for the same reasons.  Harry got careless about risks he was aware of and others had to pay.  That doesn't make him evil, but he can't escape the responsibility.

I think it's more Susan's fault than Harry's. Sure, he got careless, but he had every reason to expect that if Susan did get pregnant, she would tell him. He might have some responsibility, but I'd give him 10% to Susan's 90%.

How he reacted to his daughter being in danger is a different issue.