Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?

[nadia.skylark]

Much as Harry jumped on helping him implement it out of necessity at the last moment, it was still Martin's plan that Susan should kill him and turn. Harry caught that in the soulgaze with Martin; that why he asked Martin how the Reds found Maggie.

As I remember it, Harry realized what Martin's plan was after he had independently made the choices that allowed it to work.

Also, I personally think that Martin could not possibly have planned things that specifically, and that his actual plan was just to put Harry in a position where he had to use the bloodline curse on the Reds rather than necessarily that he would manipulate Susan into turning. I feel that if Susan hadn't had Amorrachius, then there would be too much chance of Susan dying/not getting as far, and that Martin couldn't reasonably have planned for her getting Amorrachius.

[Mira]

As I remember it, Harry realized what Martin's plan was after he had independently made the choices that allowed it to work.

Also, I personally think that Martin could not possibly have planned things that specifically, and that his actual plan was just to put Harry in a position where he had to use the bloodline curse on the Reds rather than necessarily that he would manipulate Susan into turning. I feel that if Susan hadn't had Amorrachius, then there would be too much chance of Susan dying/not getting as far, and that Martin couldn't reasonably have planned for her getting Amorrachius.

Martin was a double agent, it was him who planned the kidnapping of little Maggie in the first place..
Martin had calculated this moment for a couple of centuries, he maneuvered both sides to eventually bring them to the moment when Harry reversed the blood curse thus bringing an end to the Reds...  The flaw in all of his plans was he underestimated Harry and disregarded Susan..  Harry saw it and it desperation revealed all of Martin's treachery to her, which in turn set her off, to kill Martin, to turn, to be killed by Harry, thus setting off the blood curse..  In a way Martin did achieve his goal, the Red Court had been brought down.

[Bad Alias]

Martin probably planned on turning and being the sacrifice.

[nadia.skylark]

Martin probably planned on turning and being the sacrifice.

This.

[Talby16]

Martin probably planned on turning and being the sacrifice.

Precisely. In the beginning he had no way of knowing that the bloodline curse came into play. His goal was most likely to keep the war ongoing and keep the WC involved so that the maximum amount of damage would be done to the Reds. At some point he learned of this plan and thought of how awesome it would be to wipe all the Reds out. I fully agree that his first plan was to turn himself and force Harry to kill him wiping out the Reds. Circumstances made it more feasible to insert Susan in his role.

[Talby16]

I agree with that Harry took the best, perhaps only, overall option. Harry did manipulate Susan. I don't think he needed to.

Susan probably wasn't going to get the chance to watch anyone die. Once Maggie died, Susan would too.

It doesn't matter whether or not we think Harry did a terrible thing at Chichen Itza. Harry does. People who survive accidents that were in no way there fault often feel guilty. Susan died because of Harry, one way or another. (I mean that in a cause and effect sort of way, not morally). He's going to feel guilty and blame himself. That's Harry.

Excellent post. I completely agree. In the end, however Harry actually remembers the incident or chooses to remember the incident pales in comparison to the guilt he feels about Susan's fate. At that moment, besides that altar, I think he took the only action he could have to save Maggie. After that, he could have let his former love live as a monster or have her death mean something. Despite virtually having no choice with regards to Susan's fate he still feels guilt because that is Harry.

[Talby16]

  Susan didn't die because of Harry,  the seeds of her death were planted way back in Storm Front, long before Harry.  She liked to write about the supernatural, expose it, used Harry, though yeah came to love him, to gain fame and fortune in her career...  She gave lip service to believing what she saw and experienced but she never paid it enough respect, so like a great many dangerous things it bit her in the ass...  Even if she had never met Harry in my opinion Susan was destined to die by some supernatural means or another simply because brave as she was and smart as she was, she was always in over her head.

If she never got involved with Harry, she may very well never have had the chance to get involved enough with the supernatural to get killed. Or she could have learned about them slow enough to respect the danger. Harry gave her access.

If she hadn't had a child with Harry, she could have continued to fight the Red Court at arms length instead of a direct confrontation.

Susan is at fault for what happened to her in Grave Peril[/i]. She was stupid to ignore Harry saying it was dangerous. The woman who replaced Susan hasn't gotten into any serious trouble in part because Harry keeps her at arms length because of what happened with Susan.

Susan is a tragic character due to her fate, but I think that her end definitely overshadows the choices she made that put her in that position in the eyes of some readers (as illustrated by the above posts). One of the biggest decisions (that I disagree with) was her choice of where Maggie should grow up. I can see her concerns about the safety around Harry, but she thought the better alternative was a family she personally knew within the Red's sphere of influence. She joined the Fellowship and was an active fighter against the Reds and a known associate of their greatest enemy. She knew that Maggie would be a target because of her parentage and didn't take any more precautions than putting her with friends.

[Bad Alias]

he still feels guilt because that is Harry.

Exactly.

Susan is a tragic character due to her fate, but I think that her end definitely overshadows the choices she made that put her in that position in the eyes of some readers (as illustrated by the above posts). One of the biggest decisions (that I disagree with) was her choice of where Maggie should grow up. I can see her concerns about the safety around Harry, but she thought the better alternative was a family she personally knew within the Red's sphere of influence. She joined the Fellowship and was an active fighter against the Reds and a known associate of their greatest enemy. She knew that Maggie would be a target because of her parentage and didn't take any more precautions than putting her with friends.

I never even thought about that angle.

[Mira]

Susan is a tragic character due to her fate, but I think that her end definitely overshadows the choices she made that put her in that position in the eyes of some readers (as illustrated by the above posts). One of the biggest decisions (that I disagree with) was her choice of where Maggie should grow up. I can see her concerns about the safety around Harry, but she thought the better alternative was a family she personally knew within the Red's sphere of influence. She joined the Fellowship and was an active fighter against the Reds and a known associate of their greatest enemy. She knew that Maggie would be a target because of her parentage and didn't take any more precautions than putting her with friends.

I don't disagree with that.. However I still stand by what I first said about her being doomed from the start.  She could have gotten herself killed whether she had met Harry or not, because she never truly believe in or respected what she was "exposing" to the public..  Like her stealing then forging the invite to the vampire party then showing up with a Bram Stoker anti-vamp kit in her basket...  Yeah, they can be effective, but not against a whole den of them or what their agenda was, that is what Harry was trying to tell her.. In short she had no respect for what she was up against.. 

[Bad Alias]

However I still stand by what I first said about her being doomed from the start.

That's fair. I just think she was more 50/50 going to die of supernatural causes if Harry had kept her at arms length. Do you think Harry extended her life by several years by putting her in a position to have supernatural powers instead of dying horribly within a few years of Storm Front?

[nadia.skylark]

hat's fair. I just think she was more 50/50 going to die of supernatural causes if Harry had kept her at arms length. Do you think Harry extended her life by several years by putting her in a position to have supernatural powers instead of dying horribly within a few years of Storm Front?

I'm not sure about Mira, but I definitely think so.

[Bad Alias]

I've compared Susan going to the party like going somewhere after a Navy Seal tells you he isn't willing to go there because it's too dangerous despite not doing it pissing the Navy off at him. How stupid can you be?

Point being, I can definitely see y'all's side of things.

[Mira]

That's fair. I just think she was more 50/50 going to die of supernatural causes if Harry had kept her at arms length. Do you think Harry extended her life by several years by putting her in a position to have supernatural powers instead of dying horribly within a few years of Storm Front?

 
No,  what was the quality of that life?  Was she happy being a half turned vamp?  Yeah, she was part of the resistance, but it was that her true choice considering the alternatives? Did she seem to be a happy camper when she returned in Death Masks?   She couldn't even be a mother to her child because of it.   

[forumghost]

I've compared Susan going to the party like going somewhere after a Navy Seal tells you he isn't willing to go there because it's too dangerous despite not doing it pissing the Navy off at him. How stupid can you be?

Point being, I can definitely see y'all's side of things.

I mean I doubt Harry would see it that way, but it was 100% her fault and honestly Susan got off better then she deserved for that particular act of stupidity. I mean really:

Susan: "Harry, can I go with you to the Vampire Party?"
Harry: "No. Because I'm not going, because I'm a hamburger to those creatures and it's almost definitely a trap specifically set up to kill me by the host, that has a Grudge against me, personally."
Susan:"Imma steal your invite."

How thick can you get???

[Avernite]

Susan is a tragic character due to her fate, but I think that her end definitely overshadows the choices she made that put her in that position in the eyes of some readers (as illustrated by the above posts). One of the biggest decisions (that I disagree with) was her choice of where Maggie should grow up. I can see her concerns about the safety around Harry, but she thought the better alternative was a family she personally knew within the Red's sphere of influence. She joined the Fellowship and was an active fighter against the Reds and a known associate of their greatest enemy. She knew that Maggie would be a target because of her parentage and didn't take any more precautions than putting her with friends.

Much as I think Harry and you have a point that it would probably have been safer to keep her somewhere with Harry - Susan was probably primarily thinking about being as much a mother to Maggie as she could be, and that required a foster home in South America.