Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?

[Mira]

His knife can’t hurt you, I thought, though I knew damned well that no faerie magic could blithely ignore the touch of steel.

Thank you for the quote and the context, but I don't think it is the same..  Harry sounded conflicted. Here is what I am wondering, was he sending mixed messages to Susan in that moment? Is he so disciplined mentally that he could mentally send a lie while at the same time believing something totally different?    I think he sent that message with his doubts but it made no difference to Susan, she attacked anyway in her rage and she too wanted to save her daughter... Her own safety was the last thing she was worried about in that moment...  Actually it was kind of dumb really for Harry to even suggest that her armor would protect her, both knew damn well what would happen if she attacked, what did happen, she turned...

Consider Nic's statement in it's context.  Whatever she might suffer under Hades, had she died anywhere else her fate would would have left her in the hands of the White God for judgement. And that judgement would be irrevocable and final.  On the other hand if Nic's plan would grant him the power to challenge Hades at some point he could have Deirdre back.

Yes, no argument there, but that is my point about not just Deirdre, but Nic being taken in by the Fallen and being used by them...  I don't think either of them ever thought that she could be resurrected, that isn't what Nic was thinking... His reassurance to her was her soul wouldn't be tormented and punished for her crimes in Hades to the extent it would be on Judgement Day when all souls will be judged..  I have to go back and read, but I think he assured her that her soul couldn't be touched, thus she'd escape the ultimate punishments.  Harry, if I remember correctly sort of bought this up in his visit, but then Hades, himself disabused him of that idea..  It was that truth that Harry tried to use to try and reach Nic about what he had been done... And in fact used....

[nadia.skylark]

Thank you for the quote and the context, but I don't think it is the same..  Harry sounded conflicted. Here is what I am wondering, was he sending mixed messages to Susan in that moment? Is he so disciplined mentally that he could mentally send a lie while at the same time believing something totally different?    I think he sent that message with his doubts but it made no difference to Susan, she attacked anyway in her rage and she too wanted to save her daughter... Her own safety was the last thing she was worried about in that moment...  Actually it was kind of dumb really for Harry to even suggest that her armor would protect her, both knew damn well what would happen if she attacked, what did happen, she turned...

I'm not sure Harry was sending anything but words. There's a part in White Night that shows more clearly how his communication spell works--when he's trying to get in touch with Elaine. If I remember correctly, they could see each other and speak to each other, but I don't think there was any emotional transference (if someone could quote this bit, it would be great. I don't have my books with me).

[morriswalters]

Nic says.

You will be safe from the Enemy here.

Followed somewhat later by a strange exchange. With Deirdre saying

"I love you, father."  Nicodemus's rough voice cracked a little.  "I know," he said, very gently. "And that is the problem."

Note the capitalization of the word enemy in the first quotation. What is protecting Susan in an enchantment on her skin.

I grasped for the minor magic, fighting to pull it together through the dragging chains of the wills of the Lords of Outer Night, and cast my thought at Susan as clearly as I could. He doesn’t know all of it, I sent to her desperately. He doesn’t know about the enchantment protecting your skin. He only knows about the cloak because he saw you use it when we got here.

[Mira]

    I grasped for the minor magic, fighting to pull it together through the dragging chains of the wills of the Lords of Outer Night, and cast my thought at Susan as clearly as I could. He doesn’t know all of it, I sent to her desperately. He doesn’t know about the enchantment protecting your skin. He only knows about the cloak because he saw you use it when we got here.

You mean Changes don't you?   Susan was dead as of Skin Game..  But rereading it I think it is unclear, I don't think Harry was talking about armor that Susan was wearing, but himself..

A few paragraphs up Harry says  on page 415  About the Red King, remember now it was Harry who Lea clothed in armor and he felt silly and refused to wear the helmet..

He took the knife from my belt, smiling, and moved toward the alter--my daughter.

Harry becomes desperate.... To me it seems like he wants to attack the Red King, but he knows it is useless.

Then he says, talking to himself.  Alternatively trying to get Susan to think as to who knew who Maggie's father was..
Then he says the bit about the knife cannot you, trying to reassure himself, but at the same time knowing damn well that steel will penetrate fae armor.

[morriswalters]

Corrected quote attribution.

His knife can’t hurt you, I thought, though I knew damned well that no faerie magic could blithely ignore the touch of steel.

Italics indicate Harry thinking at Susan.

[Mira]

Corrected quote attribution.Italics indicate Harry thinking at Susan.

I am not so sure of that, I think it can go either way...  Interestingly Lea dressed her in  leathers, it really wasn't classic armor, though she demoed that it was bullet proof she never warned against iron knives, spears etc... Harry didn't either in fairness...  However though Martin had a machete and could have slashed her before she ripped his throat out... He didn't..  Either he didn't know about the iron and fae thing, or Susan turning was part of his plan...  Come to think of it, since the Red King ripped the knife he was going to use on little Maggie from Harry's belt, why didn't he stab Harry while he was at it?  Or was he also totally stupid on the subject of iron and the fae.

[morriswalters]

In terms of Changes I'm just supplying the text, as written.  How you interpret it is up to you, it seems straightforward to me. 

In terms of the quotes about Nicodemus, it's obvious to me that the White God is the Enemy.  What that might mean for Deirdre is unknown.  Is it better than what Hades might have in mind? Your guess is as good as mine.

Speaking to symmetry, there is the obvious symmetry of two women being sacrificed by their male partners, which is mildly creepy.  In terms of purpose I know one and I couldn't begin to guess the other.  So unless enlightened by Jim there isn't much in the text to support any conclusions.

Some interesting questions for which I have no answers, are.  If Satan controls Hell and the Denarians are in league with him, what does that imply as regards Deirdre had she died outside of Hades domain?  Did she face perma death versus whatever weirdness Hades might dream up.

If I remember correctly, they could see each other and speak to each other, but I don't think there was any emotional transference (if someone could quote this bit, it would be great. I don't have my books with me).

Here you go.

There was a shocked silence, and then Elaine's thought-voice said, more clearly, Harry?
And her lips moved, and the not-Elaine voice said, "What the hell?"
Elaine's eyes snapped to mine, suddenly meeting them, and the room around her clarified into crystalline relief.
She was in the bathroom of the hotel, in the tub, naked in the bath.
The air was thick with steam. She was bleeding from a broad cut across one wrist. The water was red. Her face was god-awful pale, but her eyes weren't fogged over and hazed out. Not yet.
Elaine! I thundered. You are under a psychic attack! Priscilla is the Skavis!
Elaine's eyes widened.
Someone slapped me hard on the face and screamed, "Harry!"
The world flew sideways and expanded in a rush of motion and sound as my denied senses came crashing back in upon me. The Beetle was sitting sideways across several parking spaces in the motel's little lot, both doors open, and Murphy, gun in one hand, had a hold of my duster with the other and was shaking me hard. "Harry! Get up!"

[nadia.skylark]

Come to think of it, since the Red King ripped the knife he was going to use on little Maggie from Harry's belt, why didn't he stab Harry while he was at it?  Or was he also totally stupid on the subject of iron and the fae.

Because that knife was obsidian, not iron.

Here you go.

Thanks! This quote seems to make it clear that what is conveyed is words, plus an image of the person and where they are. Based on that, I'd say that any of Harry's feelings and thoughts not phrased as dialog would not have been transmitted to Susan.

[Mira]

In terms of the quotes about Nicodemus, it's obvious to me that the White God is the Enemy.  What that might mean for Deirdre is unknown.  Is it better than what Hades might have in mind? Your guess is as good as mine.

Oh I think that is obvious to everyone who reads the books.  What that means to Deirdre is what Harry would have faced had he chosen to move on in Ghost Story, what comes next...  As Uriel
told him on page 454 in Ghost Story..

"The part involving words like forever,eternity, and judgement."

Now one could argue if Nic's side wins she won't face that, but that is yet to be determined... In the meantime though, it seems like Nic and Deirdre were under the impression that she wouldn't be punished quite so harshly in Hades and would be safe from final judgement if they lose..  Seems like both feared that judgement more than anything that could happen to her soul in Hades...  However
when Harry asked Hades about her, his reply was for Harry to go back and reread the classics, he also implied that she'd stay in his care in any case..

Harry concluded 349 Skin Game

I didn't know what would happen to Deirdre--but I knew she wasn't going to get off light.

The Hell of Satan and Hades controlled by Hades are two different places...  Hades is the realm of the dead, all the dead travel there, a place of reward for a good life as well as a place of punishment for those who didn't live one.
 Deirdre did die in the Realm of Hades, under his jurisdiction, so he gets to deal with her.... If she had died some place else, then she'd face what Uriel had told Harry... Apparently she and Nic feared the latter more than the former, they may have been wrong there...

Deirdre is Nic's daugher, Susan was Harry lover, not the same at all...  Technically she was no longer Susan when Harry killed her, otherwise the reverse spell wouldn't have worked..  Deirdre was still herself when Nic killed her.

[nadia.skylark]

Oh I think that is obvious to everyone who reads the books.

Nope! There's a bunch of people who think that he was referring to Nemesis there (and they might be right).

Deirdre is Nic's daugher, Susan was Harry lover, not the same at all...  Technically she was no longer Susan when Harry killed her, otherwise the reverse spell wouldn't have worked..  Deirdre was still herself when Nic killed her.

They were both people who loved their killers, and who allowed themselves to be killed for love. Their killers both used that love, plus a judicious bit of lying (possibly. If Nic was referring to Nemesis when he talked about the Enemy, he might not have been) to convince them to allow themselves to be killed even though it hurt all of them to do it.

Also, Susan's body might have been different, but in the moments she was killed she was clearly still herself--otherwise she wouldn't have let Harry kill her. She almost certainly would have become a different person eventually, but it hadn't happened yet.

[peregrine]

People can think whatever they like, it doesn't make them right.

TWG is the Enemy.  If we assume Lucifer and Nic have vaguely aligned goals (as shown by Lucifer aiding Nic in his attempt to grab the Archive) then Lucifer is, per Jim, doing something like playing a game of chess against TWG.  You gotta play the game to win it.  Nemesis wants to metaphorically toss the board and scatter the pieces.  And thus, while Nic/Lucifer may oppose Nemesis, the enemy is TWG.

[nadia.skylark]

People can think whatever they like, it doesn't make them right.

True. Of course, this applies to everyone.

TWG is the Enemy.  If we assume Lucifer and Nic have vaguely aligned goals (as shown by Lucifer aiding Nic in his attempt to grab the Archive) then Lucifer is, per Jim, doing something like playing a game of chess against TWG.  You gotta play the game to win it.  Nemesis wants to metaphorically toss the board and scatter the pieces.  And thus, while Nic/Lucifer may oppose Nemesis, the enemy is TWG.

This...doesn't make sense. The fact that Nemesis wants to destroy the universe which Lucifer needs intact would by definition make him Lucifer's enemy. TWG is also an enemy, of course, but people aren't actually restricted to having just one. Also, if I have one person who I want to prove wrong in an argument and one person who I know wants to annihilate my existence, I would categorize the former as my opponent and the latter as my enemy, if I were differentiating.

[morriswalters]

Unless Jim is playing mind games the capitalization of the word enemy is important.  Make of that what you will.

[nadia.skylark]

Unless Jim is playing mind games the capitalization of the word enemy is important.  Make of that what you will.

Actually, it just occurred to me reading this that that's actually support for it being Nemesis, given that if it were the White God, Nicodemus would almost certainly refer to him as that or some variation*, and we know that speaking of Nemesis by name risks attracting its attention.

*Evidence: I'm pretty sure just before that when Nicodemus is talking to Michael, he refers to TWG as "your god" (I'm not 100% certain, though; could someone quote this bit? It's when Nicodemus is talking about Michael being trapped in Hades if he dies there).

[Mira]

People can think whatever they like, it doesn't make them right.

TWG is the Enemy.  If we assume Lucifer and Nic have vaguely aligned goals (as shown by Lucifer aiding Nic in his attempt to grab the Archive) then Lucifer is, per Jim, doing something like playing a game of chess against TWG.  You gotta play the game to win it.  Nemesis wants to metaphorically toss the board and scatter the pieces.  And thus, while Nic/Lucifer may oppose Nemesis, the enemy is TWG.

Exactly, and in my opinion Nemesis is just another tool.