Author Topic: Did Michael lie?  (Read 36421 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: Did Michael lie?
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2019, 12:19:49 PM »
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I understand the context: that's why my assumption is that Michael is at least marginally okay with the torture, even though his job means that he can't acknowledge it. 

No, he wasn't marginally okay with it..
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Does anyone have a copy of White Night that they check? I don't have mine with me, but I think I remember something being said about this at the end (Bob saying something about how the shadow had a tiny piece of Lasciel's power that she stopped drawing on when she turned against Lasciel, I think).

No,  the imprint of Lasciel was running off of Harry's power.  Bob talks about damage done to Harry's brain and soul.  It's tricky because the shadow was an entity in Harry's brain, but it's power source was Harry..  But it all backfired because of the way he  treated her she developed a free will and chose in the end to be free and serve him, sacrifice herself for him and lost her connection to the original Lasciel.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Did Michael lie?
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2019, 03:12:55 PM »
Quote from: White Night
"Oh, well," Bob said. "It is energy, you know. And I wonder if
maybe… maybe… well, look, Harry. There was a tiny bit of
Lasciel's energy in you, supporting the entity, giving you access to
Hellfire. That's gone now, but the entity had to have had some kind
of power source to turn against the essence of its own originator."
"So it was running off my soul? Like I'm some kind of battery?"
"Hey," Bob said, "don't get all righteous. You gave it to her.
Encouraging her to make her own choices, to rebel, to exercise
free will." Bob shook his head. "Free will is horrible, Harry, believe
me. I'm glad I don't have it. Ugh, no, thank you. But you gave her
some. You gave her a name. The will came with it."
So the way Bob puts it, it doesn't sound like Lasciel was directly, actively powering it -- but that there was a "tiny bit" of Lasciel's energy that created the initial Shadow, which then started running off Harry's Soul when he started treating her like a person.
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Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Did Michael lie?
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2019, 03:21:28 PM »
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No, he wasn't marginally okay with it..

That's quite possible. However, while I agree that as a Knight he had no direct obligation to interfere, I think that as a decent human being, if he truly thought that it was wrong and unacceptable, he had a moral obligation to try and stop it (rather than stand outside and listen to Cassius' screams)--and he didn't. So...

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Did Michael lie?
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2019, 04:38:44 PM »
Hell, Michael and Sanya laugh about it.

He's a Knight and he might genuinely want to see the Denarians repent and be redeemed, but he's still a human and not above being a little glad when an asshole like Cassius gets a very-much-deserved asskicking from someone else.
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Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Did Michael lie?
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2019, 05:29:16 PM »
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Hell, Michael and Sanya laugh about it.

He's a Knight and he might genuinely want to see the Denarians repent and be redeemed, but he's still a human and not above being a little glad when an asshole like Cassius gets a very-much-deserved asskicking from someone else.

Exactly. This is why I feel that Michael is reasonably okay with it.

Offline Mira

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Re: Did Michael lie?
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2019, 06:43:17 PM »
Exactly. This is why I feel that Michael is reasonably okay with it.

   No, Michael wasn't okay with it, Sanya was to a degree, but then he is a former Denarian and has, shall we say a more pragmatic approach to things than Michael does..

Here is what Michael said..  pages 301-302 paperback Death Masks  bolding mine

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Michael and Sanya waited for me outside the door.  Sanya's face held  a certain amount of satisfaction.  Michael's expression was grave, worried, his eyes on mine.
"It had to be done," I said to Michael.  My voice sounded cold.  "He's alive.  It's more than he deserves."
"Perhaps," Michael said.  "But what you did, Harry.  It was wrong."
A part of me felt sick.  Another part felt felt satisfied.  I wasn't sure which of them was bigger.  "You heard what he said about Shiro.  About Susan."
Michael's eyes darkened, and he nodded.  "It doesn't make it right."
"No.  It doesn't" I met his eyes.  "Think God will forgive me?"

Michael goes on to say that God is merciful and that it isn't his place to judge..  Also in the conversation that takes place before Harry knocks the crap out of Cassius, Michael and Sanya before they leave do try to talk Harry out of doing anything to Cassius.. Cassius all the while enjoying and taunting Harry thinking he is off scott free and will get another coin..  After Michael and Sanya leave the room, then Cassius starts in on what he'd do to Susan the next time he sees her.. Harry loses it, also he needed to find out where Nic was, the Shroud, and Shiro..  Doesn't justify what he did to find out, but makes it understandable... 


Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Did Michael lie?
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2019, 07:01:00 PM »
   No, Michael wasn't okay with it, Sanya was to a degree, but then he is a former Denarian and has, shall we say a more pragmatic approach to things than Michael does..

Here is what Michael said..  pages 301-302 paperback Death Masks  bolding mine

Michael goes on to say that God is merciful and that it isn't his place to judge..  Also in the conversation that takes place before Harry knocks the crap out of Cassius, Michael and Sanya before they leave do try to talk Harry out of doing anything to Cassius.. Cassius all the while enjoying and taunting Harry thinking he is off scott free and will get another coin..  After Michael and Sanya leave the room, then Cassius starts in on what he'd do to Susan the next time he sees her.. Harry loses it, also he needed to find out where Nic was, the Shroud, and Shiro..  Doesn't justify what he did to find out, but makes it understandable...

You cut the scene off too soon. Immediately after that part, Michael switches gears from, "That wasn't right, Harry," to relishing the look on Cassius's face.

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Michael was quiet for a moment, and then his expression
softened. He clasped my shoulder and said, "God is always
merciful."
"What you did for him was actually quite generous," Sanya said
philosophically. "Relatively speaking. He might be hurt, but he is,
after all, alive. He'll have a nice, long while to reconsider his
choices."
"Uh-huh," I said. "I'm a giver. Did it for his own good."
Sanya nodded gravely. "Good intentions."
Michael nodded. "Who are we to judge you?" His eyes flashed,
and he asked Sanya, "Did you see the snake's face, right when
Harry turned with the bat?"

Sanya smiled and started whistling as we walked through the
parking lot.
We piled into the truck. "Drop me off at my place," I said. "I need
to pick up a couple things. Make some phone calls."
"The duel?" Michael asked. "Harry, are you sure you don't want
me to—"
"Leave it to me," I said. "You've already got something on your
plate. I can handle things. I'll meet you at the airport afterward and
help you find Shiro."
"If you live," Sanya said.
"Yes. Thank you, Comrade Obvious."
The Russian grinned. "Was that a quarter you gave Cassius?"
"Yeah."
"For the phone?"
"Yeah."
Michael noted, "Phone calls cost more than that now."
I slouched back and allowed myself a small smile. "Yeah. I
know."
Sanya and Michael burst out laughing. Michael pounded on the
steering wheel.
That sounds like Michael isn't too broken up about it after all.
Compels solve everything!

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Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Did Michael lie?
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2019, 08:17:26 PM »
I think it could go either way, really. I prefer Michael as a character to be all right with it, but I acknowledge that it's kind of iffy to assume that.

Offline Mira

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Re: Did Michael lie?
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2019, 08:48:57 PM »


   Michael is also human, not a saint..  Considering everything, his reaction was very human.  Did he disapprove of what Harry did?  Yes, on no uncertain terms...  However at the same time Michael knows the kind of person Cassius is and what he was and one cannot blame him for enjoying the irony of Harry giving Cassius a quarter for a phone call after he had given up a coin.  He cannot be the judge of either Cassius or Harry for that matter, as a matter of his faith, judgement is for the Almighty, not him... At the same time he cannot be blamed for savoring a little dash of irony.

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Did Michael lie?
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2019, 10:28:56 PM »
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Michael is also human, not a saint..

True.

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Considering everything, his reaction was very human.  Did he disapprove of what Harry did?  Yes, on no uncertain terms...  However at the same time Michael knows the kind of person Cassius is and what he was and one cannot blame him for enjoying the irony of Harry giving Cassius a quarter for a phone call after he had given up a coin.  He cannot be the judge of either Cassius or Harry for that matter, as a matter of his faith, judgement is for the Almighty, not him... At the same time he cannot be blamed for savoring a little dash of irony.

See, the thing is, when I disapprove of something, I don't laugh about it. Even when it might be funny, I try to avoid laughing because it undermines that disapproval.

To me, Michael laughing indicates that either he doesn't disapprove that much but feels obligated to say something or that he's being hypocritical/does not appear to care that much about Harry.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 10:50:04 PM by nadia.skylark »

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Did Michael lie?
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2019, 10:45:18 PM »
The way I see it is that the fallen powers the shadow continuously. There is a connection between the shadow and the fallen, so a circle isn't going to stop the fallen from feeding the shadow. A circle might break the connection between the coin and the holder, but not the fallen and the shadow.

I think this because the shadow is fueled by the fallen. If the connection is broken, then the shadow will have to fade away or drain energy from Harry. If it is draining energy from Harry, he would be weaker, not stronger. In White Night, the shadow uses Harry's energy to go against the fallen. The shadow looks worn and haggard.

As to whether or not Michael was okay with the beating of Cassius, being okay with something and thinking it's not wrong aren't the same thing. People are often okay with the wrong thing being done.

One way to look at the Knights is to view them as both a human and a Knight. The man may be willing to do something, but the knight doesn't have the power to interfere because the action is outside his job description. Michael probably wanted to help Ascher, but he probably didn't have the power to do so. It's said many times in the books that the Knights are more vulnerable when they aren't "on the job."

I often laugh at things I disapprove. It's most common with children. They do something wrong, but hilarious. I have to control the laughter or hide and laugh silently if someone else is correcting them.

Offline Mira

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Re: Did Michael lie?
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2019, 10:51:42 PM »
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See, the thing is, when I disapprove of something, I don't laugh about it. Even when it might be funny, I try to avoid laughing because it undermines that disapproval.

To me, Michael laughing indicates that either he doesn't disapprove that much but feels obligated to say something or that he's being hypocritical.

But he wasn't laughing at Cassius being beaten up.. They were laughing at Harry giving Cassius a quarter for the phone,  and the irony in that..  A coin, get it?  He had voiced his disapproval to Harry for what he did, he knows on another level this was the only way to get information from Cassius.. His faith also dictates that Harry doesn't have to answer to him for what he did, but eventually to the real Judge, the Almighty...  So Michael can disapprove, voice it strongly, then move on and appreciate the irony of tossing a quarter to Cassius, who had just surrendered his beloved coin at great cost..  That is why Sanya said that a phone call costs a great deal more than a quarter..
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I often laugh at things I disapprove. It's most common with children. They do something wrong, but hilarious. I have to control the laughter or hide and laugh silently if someone else is correcting them.

Agreed... 

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Did Michael lie?
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2019, 10:54:31 PM »
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As to whether or not Michael was okay with the beating of Cassius, being okay with something and thinking it's not wrong aren't the same thing. People are often okay with the wrong thing being done.

One way to look at the Knights is to view them as both a human and a Knight. The man may be willing to do something, but the knight doesn't have the power to interfere because the action is outside his job description. Michael probably wanted to help Ascher, but he probably didn't have the power to do so.

This is a much better explanation of what I was trying to say.

Sorry for any confusion that my poor phrasing may have caused.

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But he wasn't laughing at Cassius being beaten up.. They were laughing at Harry giving Cassius a quarter for the phone,  and the irony in that..

I thought they were laughing at Cassius' face when he was getting beaten up as well, which to me feels like the same thing as laughing at Cassius being beaten up.

Offline Bad Alias

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Re: Did Michael lie?
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2019, 04:10:47 AM »
The joke about the quarter was that pay phones had gone up to 35 cents back in '97. Here's an article from 2001 about pay phones going up to 50 cents. It mentions the change from a quarter to 35 cents. https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2001-07-07-0107070266-story.html

Offline Mira

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Re: Did Michael lie?
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2019, 12:29:23 PM »
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I thought they were laughing at Cassius' face when he was getting beaten up as well, which to me feels like the same thing as laughing at Cassius being beaten up.

They didn't watch him being beaten up.   However it is possible to be totally against something yet get some satisfaction when it happens.  Case in point, death penalty, one can be totally against it, yet when some really evil mass murderer gets executed it is hard to feel bad about it.  What I am saying emotions are complicated,  few of us are saints, and even saints have moments of weakness.  Michael and Sanya are Holy Knights, it isn't their job to judge Cassius or Harry.  The whole scene was complicated, Harry didn't just wack away at Cassius with the baseball bat just because he could.  Cassius did all he could to provoke him and he lost it... Also there were many lives at stake and as  a
last resort Harry tried to beat answers out of him...  Given who Cassius had been and what he had done  etc, it is very possible for Michael and Sanya to be against beating him up but at the same time find some satisfaction in Cassius getting what he perhaps richly deserved.  Understanding something isn't the same as condoning something.