Did Michael lie?

[morriswalters]

There are two problems with this. The first is that I see no evidence that Harry's magic reinforces the existence of the shadow. The second is that I don't accept your interpretation of "waste away." If that was the sense in which Michael was using it, then he was being deliberately misleading.

You don't need to accept it, it serves as an alternative explanation.  We'll never know unless Jim tells us.

When I memorize numbers I reinforce them by repeating or using them.  This is the sense in which magic reinforces the Shadow.

If your going to use the word lie than give me a why.  I can accept a continuity error, are you suggesting something more?

[nadia.skylark]

When I memorize numbers I reinforce them by repeating or using them.  This is the sense in which magic reinforces the Shadow.

I have trouble with this. I absolutely believe that drawing on hellfire for his magic causes Harry to reinforce behavioral patterns that are to the shadow's benefit, but I'm not sure why it would reinforce the shadow itself.

If your going to use the word lie than give me a why.  I can accept a continuity error, are you suggesting something more?

I'm interested in exploring the priorities of the Knights in general and Michael in particular. Specifically, I'm looking for an answer to the question "to what extent will a Knight do something that they would normally consider wrong to preserve a soul/souls?" We know the answer isn't that they never would, because I can't imagine a world in which Michael thinks that it is right to stand by and let a person be tortured under normal circumstances. We also know that they will refuse to compromise their beliefs most of the time no matter what is at stake, based on their refusal to threaten/kill Cassius themselves and refusal to go after the Denarians preemptively in Small Favor (even though they had taken a hostage and it really would have been a rescue mission).

I want to know where they draw the line, and establishing whether it is more likely than not that Michael has lied to Harry will help answer that.

(I may be slightly biased: I personally believe that letting someone else darken their soul by torturing someone is a worse act than torturing someone yourself, because you're letting someone else be harmed rather than risking yourself. I realize it wasn't intended to be read this way, but emotionally it feels like the Knights were saying that their souls had more value than those that would be hurt if they did nothing. Having Michael be lying makes me like him more, because it shows that he is human and fallible, just trying to do the best he can to help people even if it's not something he's comfortable with (meaning he didn't think what Harry did to Cassius was actually all that bad, and just objected for form's sake) rather than the perfect paladin who would never do that (meaning he stood by and let his friend corrupt his soul without even trying to intervene). )

If you can find evidence that Michael wasn't lying, though, I'm fine with that. I've seen one or two explanations posted to that effect that make sense.

[Mira]

I have trouble with this. I absolutely believe that drawing on hellfire for his magic causes Harry to reinforce behavioral patterns that are to the shadow's benefit, but I'm not sure why it would reinforce the shadow itself.

   Dependency,  the more the potential host uses it, the greater the influence which eventually leads to the acceptance of the coin which is the goal of the shadow.  Consider, on one level Harry was resisting Lasciel, but at the same time over time he became more and more dependent upon the use of things like hellfire, and he wasn't aware of how it was changing him.... It took Murphy's sit down and the incident with Molly and the fireball for him to realize how the shadow was changing him.   

I'm interested in exploring the priorities of the Knights in general and Michael in particular. Specifically, I'm looking for an answer to the question "to what extent will a Knight do something that they would normally consider wrong to preserve a soul/souls?" We know the answer isn't that they never would, because I can't imagine a world in which Michael thinks that it is right to stand by and let a person be tortured under normal circumstances. We also know that they will refuse to compromise their beliefs most of the time no matter what is at stake, based on their refusal to threaten/kill Cassius themselves and refusal to go after the Denarians preemptively in Small Favor (even though they had taken a hostage and it really would have been a rescue mission).

The Knights have a narrow lane with in to work, like for angels the rules are very strict.  The mission  is enable redemption by getting the Denarian they are fighting to give up their coins, or kill them in the process.. However once the coin is given up, it is out of their hands.  That is why they refused to
mess with Cassius once he gave up his coin... Free will, it didn't matter what Cassius had done or was, without the coin he now had a chance to live the rest of his life redeeming himself ultimately or not, it was out of their hands.

(I may be slightly biased: I personally believe that letting someone else darken their soul by torturing someone is a worse act than torturing someone yourself, because you're letting someone else be harmed rather than risking yourself. I realize it wasn't intended to be read this way, but emotionally it feels like the Knights were saying that their souls had more value than those that would be hurt if they did nothing. Having Michael be lying makes me like him more, because it shows that he is human and fallible, just trying to do the best he can to help people even if it's not something he's comfortable with (meaning he didn't think what Harry did to Cassius was actually all that bad, and just objected for form's sake) rather than the perfect paladin who would never do that (meaning he stood by and let his friend corrupt his soul without even trying to intervene). )

That is the "catch 22" of free will, Harry's choice to punish and seek revenge over Cassius..  That isn't the job of a Knight, that is for the Almighty, what Cassius chose to do from there on out was his..

[Mr. Death]

It draws its power from its Fallen.

Where is this stated? To my knowledge, the only explanation anyone has ever given for what powers the Shadow is that it's powered by Harry's magic.

[Mira]

Where is this stated? To my knowledge, the only explanation anyone has ever given for what powers the Shadow is that it's powered by Harry's magic.

   I think it is a little of both, the shadow has the knowledge, but being a wizard, Harry has the power.

A big example of that I believe is hellfire,  it isn't something that any Denarian automatically gets or can use, it takes a Denarian who is also a wizard.   The shadow of Lasciel enabled the channels that Harry could use as a wizard to throw hellfire around.   So technically the shadow isn't drawing the power for it from the coin, Harry is drawing from himself.  However what the shadow is doing is pushing Harry's emotional buttons that makes it all possible..

[nadia.skylark]

Dependency,  the more the potential host uses it, the greater the influence which eventually leads to the acceptance of the coin which is the goal of the shadow.  Consider, on one level Harry was resisting Lasciel, but at the same time over time he became more and more dependent upon the use of things like hellfire, and he wasn't aware of how it was changing him.... It took Murphy's sit down and the incident with Molly and the fireball for him to realize how the shadow was changing him.

Once again, this advances the shadow's goals, but it doesn't seem to strengthen the shadow itself. An analogy would be the Alphas deciding to work with Harry: It makes Harry more effective at accomplishing his goals, but it doesn't make him able to, for example, lift more weight or throw spells harder, and he's not going to pop out of existence spontaneously if all his allies suddenly stop working with him (the fact that he'll probably get killed is beside the point).

The Knights have a narrow lane with in to work, like for angels the rules are very strict.  The mission  is enable redemption by getting the Denarian they are fighting to give up their coins, or kill them in the process.. However once the coin is given up, it is out of their hands.  That is why they refused to
mess with Cassius once he gave up his coin... Free will, it didn't matter what Cassius had done or was, without the coin he now had a chance to live the rest of his life redeeming himself ultimately or not, it was out of their hands.

It can't be that narrow. Redeeming Denarians may be their primary purpose, but Michael has fought humans summoning non-Fallen demons, Hobs, and Outsiders at least. Based on what Michael said about why he couldn't help Hannah at the Gate of Fire, I'd assume that part of their job is also the protection of the innocent.

That is the "catch 22" of free will, Harry's choice to punish and seek revenge over Cassius..  That isn't the job of a Knight, that is for the Almighty, what Cassius chose to do from there on out was his..

True. But I don't think free will would have prevented Michael from trying to convince Harry not to/stop him from torturing Cassius, and if Michael truly believed that it was genuinely Wrong, as opposed to techically-wrong-but-actually-not, then he should have made the attempt.

Now, I don't actually believe he did think it was Wrong, under the circumstances, just like I believe that he didn't think it was Wrong to lie to Harry in service of saving his soul from being corrupted by the Fallen. 

[morriswalters]

Where is this stated? To my knowledge, the only explanation anyone has ever given for what powers the Shadow is that it's powered by Harry's magic.

It isn't stated explicitly.  But with the Shadow Harry can use Hellfire, absent the Shadow he can't.  Therefore the power for Hellfire comes from somewhere outside Harry.

[Mira]

It isn't stated explicitly.  But with the Shadow Harry can use Hellfire, absent the Shadow he can't.  Therefore the power for Hellfire comes from somewhere outside Harry.

   Not necessarily, absent the shadow, the same anger isn't present in Harry.   Remember in the field when the ghouls got the young apprentices and Harry completely lost it and went postal with hell fire?  It's the anger that makes the difference in my opinion, kind of like Star Wars,  there is the Force, and then there is the dark side of the Force, they come from the same place but it is how they are used that makes the difference, where on enhances the other corrupts..

True. But I don't think free will would have prevented Michael from trying to convince Harry not to/stop him from torturing Cassius, and if Michael truly believed that it was genuinely Wrong, as opposed to techically-wrong-but-actually-not, then he should have made the attempt.

Michael did make the attempt to stop Harry, but could not convince him to not hurt Cassius.  Which pissed Harry off considerably because he doesn't understand Holy Knights or their purpose..
Micheal explains page296 paperback Death Masks.

"The Knights are here to protect freedom.  To give those who are under the oppression of dark forces the chance to win free of them.  I cannot sit in judgement on this man's soul, Harry Dresden.  Not for you.  Not for anyone.  All I can do is remain faithful to my calling.  Give him the chance to see hope for his future.  To show him the love and the compassion any human being should show another.  The rest is out of my hands."

What you are missing is the context, Michael and company had defeated Cassius, in a ploy to save his ass, Cassius gave up his coin, which he knew would take the Holy Knights out of the fight.  He had hope that his fellow Denarians would still take him back and he'd gain another coin.  Harry saw though this and didn't understand the constraints that Michael has to fight under... If he had tried to continue the fight after Cassius gave up the coin, his Sword would have shattered just as Murphy's had against Nic...  Harry continued to want to take him out, but now the fight was out of Michael's hands, but he did try to talk Harry out of injuring Cassius, Sanya, not so much..

[nadia.skylark]

Michael did make the attempt to stop Harry, but could not convince him to not hurt Cassius.  Which pissed Harry off considerably because he doesn't understand Holy Knights or their purpose..

What you are missing is the context, Michael and company had defeated Cassius, in a ploy to save his ass, Cassius gave up his coin, which he knew would take the Holy Knights out of the fight.  He had hope that his fellow Denarians would still take him back and he'd gain another coin.  Harry saw though this and didn't understand the constraints that Michael has to fight under... If he had tried to continue the fight after Cassius gave up the coin, his Sword would have shattered just as Murphy's had against Nic...  Harry continued to want to take him out, but now the fight was out of Michael's hands, but he did try to talk Harry out of injuring Cassius, Sanya, not so much..

I understand the context: that's why my assumption is that Michael is at least marginally okay with the torture, even though his job means that he can't acknowledge it. 

Did Michael try to talk Harry out of it? I was under the impression that he explained why he couldn't do anything, not that he was trying to convince Harry not to do anything.

[Mr. Death]

It isn't stated explicitly.  But with the Shadow Harry can use Hellfire, absent the Shadow he can't.  Therefore the power for Hellfire comes from somewhere outside Harry.

The Shadow allows Harry access to Hellfire -- that doesn't mean the Shadow is powering the Hellfire.

Plus, isn't Lash being powered by Harry's power and soul part of the explanation for how she was able to grow and change?

Plus plus, Harry had buried the coin in a containment circle and cut himself off from Lasciel's whispers as soon as he got the coin.

All the evidence we have points to the Shadow being a separate entity from Lasciel, one that does not have access to her.

[morriswalters]

The Shadow allows Harry access to Hellfire -- that doesn't mean the Shadow is powering the Hellfire.

Plus, isn't Lash being powered by Harry's power and soul part of the explanation for how she was able to grow and change?

Plus plus, Harry had buried the coin in a containment circle and cut himself off from Lasciel's whispers as soon as he got the coin.

All the evidence we have points to the Shadow being a separate entity from Lasciel, one that does not have access to her.

When Harry buried the coin he wasn't aware of the Shadow.  And he didn't understand what it was capable of.  For instance Lash tells Harry in the Raith Deeps that she can show him how to summon the coin.  So to me that means there is a connection.

And I didn't say the Shadow was powering the Hellfire.  The Shadow exists because it is written in Harry's brain, the Shadow is doing a ride along.  If Harry dies the Shadow dies.  But the Shadow never acts in the real world. So where does hellfire come from?

 

[nadia.skylark]

Plus, isn't Lash being powered by Harry's power and soul part of the explanation for how she was able to grow and change?

I'm pretty sure Bob tells Harry at the end of White Night that he gave Lash access to his soul by encouraging her to be her own person, which only happened during that book.

On the other hand, we have WoJ saying that Bob didn't actually know what happened, and was only theorizing, so...

[Mr. Death]

When Harry buried the coin he wasn't aware of the Shadow.  And he didn't understand what it was capable of.  For instance Lash tells Harry in the Raith Deeps that she can show him how to summon the coin.  So to me that means there is a connection.

Harry being unaware of the shadow is irrelevant -- Lasciel's whispers stop when he puts her in the circle. The Shadow is clearly not Lasciel, as Lash continually refers to Lasciel as a separate entity, and makes it clear that she has, at best, Lasciel's knowledge and extremely limited power.

Harry can summon the Erlking. That doesn't mean Harry gets his power from the Erlking. Of course there's a connection -- Lash was made by the coin and is a copy of the Fallen's consciousness.

And I didn't say the Shadow was powering the Hellfire.  The Shadow exists because it is written in Harry's brain, the Shadow is doing a ride along.  If Harry dies the Shadow dies.  But the Shadow never acts in the real world. So where does hellfire come from?

No, you said the Fallen was powering the Hellfire; I'm positing that the Fallen is not, because it's contained in the coin and therefore incapable of acting directly on or through Harry. That's rather the point of it being in a coin in the first place -- it can't act without something else willing to let it act through it.

Presumably, the Hellfire comes from Hell.

I look at it this way -- Harry's got access to a number of 'taps' normally; ambient energy, the weather, ley lines, his own emotions and power, etc. Each is like a faucet. There's a couple that he normally doesn't have access to -- like Hellfire. Lash lets him turn that faucet's knob, but neither she nor the Fallen is the one actually providing the 'water' coming out of it.

[morriswalters]

No, you said the Fallen was powering the Hellfire; I'm positing that the Fallen is not, because it's contained in the coin and therefore incapable of acting directly on or through Harry. That's rather the point of it being in a coin in the first place -- it can't act without something else willing to let it act through it.

Well, we see it differently.  But maybe yours is the better theory.  I'll think on it.

[nadia.skylark]

No, you said the Fallen was powering the Hellfire; I'm positing that the Fallen is not, because it's contained in the coin and therefore incapable of acting directly on or through Harry. That's rather the point of it being in a coin in the first place -- it can't act without something else willing to let it act through it.

Does anyone have a copy of White Night that they can check? I don't have mine with me, but I think I remember something being said about this at the end (Bob saying something about how the shadow had a tiny piece of Lasciel's power that she stopped drawing on when she turned against Lasciel, I think).