Did Michael lie?

[nadia.skylark]

In Proven Guilty, Michael says that Harry can get rid of Lasciel's shadow by giving up his power. Then, when Harry turns him down, Michael says that he has faith that Harry will find another way to be rid of Lasciel's shadow. However, in Small Favor Michael claims that there is no way to be rid of a shadow of the Fallen, and uses this as a justification for believing that Harry set up a little girl to be tortured.

Am I misremembering/misunderstanding, or is this an outright lie about a major issue by the series' resident paladin?

[Arjan]

In Proven Guilty, Michael says that Harry can get rid of Lasciel's shadow by giving up his power. Then, when Harry turns him down, Michael says that he has faith that Harry will find another way to be rid of Lasciel's shadow. However, in Small Favor Michael claims that there is no way to be rid of a shadow of the Fallen, and uses this as a justification for believing that Harry set up a little girl to be tortured.

Am I misremembering/misunderstanding, or is this an outright lie about a major issue by the series' resident paladin?

People can change their mind.

[Mira]

In Proven Guilty, Michael says that Harry can get rid of Lasciel's shadow by giving up his power. Then, when Harry turns him down, Michael says that he has faith that Harry will find another way to be rid of Lasciel's shadow. However, in Small Favor Michael claims that there is no way to be rid of a shadow of the Fallen, and uses this as a justification for believing that Harry set up a little girl to be tortured.

Am I misremembering/misunderstanding, or is this an outright lie about a major issue by the series' resident paladin?

No, Michael didn't lie, up until Harry, what Michael said was true.   If I remember correctly, it is easier to give up a coin and reject it's holder like  Sanyo did than to reject the shadow of one of the Fallen once it's gotten into the potential host's head.   That is why Michael was so skeptical about the
notion that Harry was able to reject Lasciel's shadow.  I also don't think Michael wanted to go up against his best friend, Harry, so he was grasping at straws that Harry could pull it off, but at the same time not believing it was possible.. The fact that Harry was able to throw of the shadow got the attention of Heaven and one reason why he was gifted with soul fire..   

[nadia.skylark]

People can change their mind.

True, but... you'd think he'd say something to Harry before Harry forced the situation. I mean, it is his job to make sure people know the truth about the Fallen, after all.

No, Michael didn't lie, up until Harry, what Michael said was true.

Which time? The problem here is that Michael contradicted himself.

I also don't think Michael wanted to go up against his best friend, Harry, so he was grasping at straws that Harry could pull it off, but at the same time not believing it was possible.

This makes sense.

[Mira]

Which time? The problem here is that Michael contradicted himself.

No, on the surface it appears that he is contradicting himself, but it isn't deliberate.   In the first instance Michael is trying to help Harry to do something he doesn't really think is possible..  So he suggests that if Harry gives up his power he can rid himself of the shadow...  It is like if he suggested if Harry stood on his head for three minutes each day he could cure his brain tumor..  When as far as Michael's knowledge of this kind of brain cancer is concerned, it is terminal, but there is an outside chance that it could work..   Technically a lie I suppose, but it is also a bit of a prayer and a hope that if Harry was willing to do that God would remove the shadow.

The second, because Michael knows for a fact that no one has ever thrown off the shadow once it is in one's head, he cannot believe Harry has done it...  Back to the brain tumor, Harry didn't stand on his head to cure it, but still he is cured from a tumor that is always terminal...  I think Michael is conflicted because his faith demands that he believe in miracles,  Harry was able to rid himself from the shadow, something no mortal has done up to this point...  Michael is in the redemption business as a Holy Knight, so he wants to believe Harry badly.. However he is also confronted with what he knows to be true, no one until Harry has ever thrown off the infiltration of a shadow of one of the Fallen..  Harry never handed him the coin and said, "here I reject this..." Which would be direct evidence.   So getting back to the tumor thing, since Michael knows no one has ever survived this tumor, it may be easier to think that perhaps Harry never had that tumor in the first place or is fooling himself and is really dying...   

[nadia.skylark]

In the first instance Michael is trying to help Harry to do something he doesn't really think is possible..  So he suggests that if Harry gives up his power he can rid himself of the shadow...  It is like if he suggested if Harry stood on his head for three minutes each day he could cure his brain tumor..  When as far as Michael's knowledge of this kind of brain cancer is concerned, it is terminal, but there is an outside chance that it could work..   Technically a lie I suppose, but it is also a bit of a prayer and a hope that if Harry was willing to do that God would remove the shadow.

That's a bit more than technically a lie. I mean, what happens if Harry goes through with it, gives up his powers, and still has the shadow? Is he just going to be fine with it? Given that Harry uses his powers to protect people (and based on the books, it is entirely likely that Harry would have to deal with innocent people dying because he refuses to use his power to save them) I think if he realized that Michael had lied to him he would be far more likely to disregard everything that Michael says/has said...and given that Harry still has Lasciel's shadow...

Harry never handed him the coin and said, "here I reject this..."

No, but Harry gave the coin to Forthill, so I find it pretty unbelievable that Michael doesn't know.

[nadia.skylark]

Personally, I think that the issue is that at the end of Proven Guilty, Michael still believes that magic is a dubious/corrupting power, and that if Harry gets rid of it it will reduce the shadow's hold on him. He lies via exaggeration and omission to Harry (saying that it will get rid of the shadow and not mentioning why he believes Harry giving up his magic will help) because he knows that if he explains things truthfully Harry will turn him down, and he genuinely wants to save Harry from Lasciel. He tells Harry that he believes Harry can find another way to get rid of the shadow because he knows how important hope is against the Fallen.

By Small Favor, however, Michael has had a chance to watch Molly being trained in magic, and to understand that magic is not an inherently corruptive force. Due to this, he no longer believes that giving up magic would help against the Fallen, and tells Harry that there is no way to be rid of a shadow short of picking up the coin.

[Bad Alias]

Proven Guilty:
1:

Give up the coin of you own will. And set aside your power. If you do, Lasciel's shadow will dwindle with it and waste away.

2:

I don't know of another way to end Lasciel's influence, but that doesn't mean there isn't one out there.

Small Favor:
3:

Because in two thousand years no one has rid themselves of the shadow of one of the Fallen-except by accepting the demon into them entirely, taking up the coin, and living to feel remorse and discarding it. And you claim that you never took up the coin."

4:

"Then either the shadow is still there," Michael said, "still twisting your thoughts. Still whispering to you. Or you're lying to me about taking up the coin. Those are the only options."

Statement 1 and 3 could both be true*, but how would Michael know statement 1 was true if statement 3 was also true? It could be that Michael believed statement 1, but researched it because he had never been in the position of dealing with someone who had not taken up an offered coin. Then he came to believe statement 3. He didn't inform Harry because that would only push him to take up the coin to get rid of the shadow.

*We know statement 3 is false. We have no evidence that statement 1 is true and some that it is false, or at least would be a black swan event.

Or it's a continuity error that no one caught before going to print.

[Mira]

*We know statement 3 is false.

As far as Michael's knowledge goes, statement  3 wasn't false...  It had never happened before Harry came along.  The fact that Harry was able to resist then reject the shadow got Heaven's attention.. 

Statement 1 is more of a hope, more like Michael expressing his own hope and belief than actual knowledge...  In his mind he could be telling the truth though it was not based on any facts as far as he knew them..

[morriswalters]

In Proven Guilty, Michael says that Harry can get rid of Lasciel's shadow by giving up his power. Then, when Harry turns him down, Michael says that he has faith that Harry will find another way to be rid of Lasciel's shadow. However, in Small Favor Michael claims that there is no way to be rid of a shadow of the Fallen, and uses this as a justification for believing that Harry set up a little girl to be tortured.

Am I misremembering/misunderstanding, or is this an outright lie about a major issue by the series' resident paladin?

A misunderstanding.  This is the first quote.

“I don’t know of another way to end Lasciel’s influence, but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one out there. If you should change your mind about the coin, Harry, if you want to get rid of it, I promise that I’ll be there for you.”

This is the second.

“Then either the shadow is still there,” Michael said, “still twisting your thoughts. Still whispering to you. Or you’re lying to me about taking up the coin. Those are the only options.”

First the context.  Mab has brain wiped Harry, trying to keep Harry from attracting attention by using his fire magic.  This makes Harry act out of character, thus leading Micheal to believe it is possible that Harry has fallen prey to the coin. 

There is a difference between the Shadow and the coin, they can't both exist concurrently, if someone picks up the coin and keeps it with them the Shadow is reabsorbed. Which is why Sanya could toss the coin in the Canal and lose his fallen, he had the coin but not the shadow.  On the other hand, he believes the only way to lose the shadow is through disuse.  Which is the distinction Micheal makes.  He isn't aware of the fact the Shadow could be destroyed by a psychic attack.

[Bad Alias]

@Mira: Statement 3 is a false statement, and that's all I was saying. A false statement is not a lie. I wouldn't even say a lie is an intentionally false statement. A lie is an intentionally false statement intended to deceive.

I think you're pushing it with statement 1. It's laid out as a statement of fact. There isn't any give to it. Statement 2 has plenty of give. Statement 3 almost excludes statement 1 from possibility. Statement 4 leaves our statement 1, but could be an unstated acknowledgement that Harry still has his magic.

I don't think Michael lied because of who Jim wanted him to be. The perfect paladin. So I think the most likely explanations are the ones I gave earlier.

@Morris: I'd agree with you if it weren't for statement 3. It's very hard to have that next to statement 1.

[nadia.skylark]

I don't think Michael lied because of who Jim wanted him to be. The perfect paladin.

Remember, Jim also wanted Michael to be human. It's shown explicitly in "The Warrior" when Uriel says that without Harry's help Michael would have made the wrong choice because his child had been hurt.

I can believe that Michael would lie because he thought that it was the only way to save Harry's soul--and I believe that he could be (and was) wrong about that.

[groinkick]

In Proven Guilty, Michael says that Harry can get rid of Lasciel's shadow by giving up his power. Then, when Harry turns him down, Michael says that he has faith that Harry will find another way to be rid of Lasciel's shadow. However, in Small Favor Michael claims that there is no way to be rid of a shadow of the Fallen, and uses this as a justification for believing that Harry set up a little girl to be tortured.

Am I misremembering/misunderstanding, or is this an outright lie about a major issue by the series' resident paladin?

Him saying that there is no way to rid themselves of the Shadow is factoring in that Harry will not give up his magic.  So he wasn't lying.  Also Harry never did rid himself of her.  She sacrificed herself resulting in her departure.  We know that people can get rid of the shadow as everyone who has given up the Coin has none.  The shadow is tied to the magical power a wizard possesses.  So that is what Michael was talking about.

[Mira]

Him saying that there is no way to rid themselves of the Shadow is factoring in that Harry will not give up his magic.  So he wasn't lying.  Also Harry never did rid himself of her.  She sacrificed herself resulting in her departure.  We know that people can get rid of the shadow as everyone who has given up the Coin has none.  The shadow is tied to the magical power a wizard possesses.  So that is what Michael was talking about.

Harry didn't rid himself of Lasciel's shadow, true, so the suggestions that Michael was giving him were based on Michael's own beliefs, not on lies..  Also facts that Michael knows, no one has ever rid themselves of the shadow of a Fallen.  What Harry did that changed the whole ball game, is not merely resisting, but eventually changing the shadow of Lasciel into Lash.   Lash to came to love him enough to sacrifice herself for him.   This had never happened before in the whole history of the coins etc.

[Mr. Death]

Point of fact, Michael does not say he has faith Harry will find another way to get rid of the Shadow. The exchange goes:

“I don’t know of another way to end Lasciel’s influence, but that
doesn’t mean there isn’t one out there. If you should change your
mind about the coin, Harry, if you want to get rid of it, I promise that
I’ll be there for you.”

So the closest he comes is a shrugging admission that there might be another way and that he will help Harry if Harry decides to ditch the coin in the terms Michael has laid out.

Also, Michael isn't omniscient -- that's kind of the point Harry makes in Small Favor. Michael is working from biased, incomplete information.

He knows Harry grabbed the coin and got the Shadow.

The only way he knows of to get rid of the Shadow is for Harry to give up his magic.

Harry has not given up his magic. He has given the coin to Forthill, but Michael also knows the Denarians can summon their coins back and otherwise have found ways to get them back into circulation.

Also, Harry has been acting particularly odd lately (no blasting rod, not using fire).

Ergo, to the best of Michael's knowledge, Harry still has the Shadow, and the Shadow is most likely influencing him.