Angelic intervention in Fool Moon

[Cozarkian]

From the Wikipedia.Just as an aside, the bit about the Mab being unable to lie, is a shortcut.  More properly she can't speak a direct lie.  Here is an example of a lie of omission from Summer Knight.  It's a play on his expectations.

GS does not have the structure of a lie by omission. Here is an example of a lie by omission: "If you enter this deal, I, Mab, promise I won't hurt you as punishment for rejecting my request for a favor (but I don't promise I won't hurt you just for spite)." Here is an example of a direct lie: "If you enter this deal, I, Mab, promise I won't hurt you as punishment for rejecting my request for a favor (unless I disagree with your reasons for doing so)."

The GS quote takes the form of the latter: "He is mine to shape as I please (unless he exercises free will)."

Also, again, it doesn't really matter how and why Mab was able to say what she said. What matters is that Uriel would not have said she her words were lies when he knows she can't lie and when he knows that Harry knows she can't lie. Here's the form of the seven words: <Factually questionable assertion that has to be justified by equivocation>, <very important truth>.

Here's the form that Uriel would have used: <Factually accurate assertion>, <very important truth>.

Here are examples of how that could have been done using only seven words:

Wrong, . . .

No, . . .

False, . . .

Incorrect, . . .

Exaggeration, . . .

Hyperbole, . . .

Deception, . . .

Deceiver, . . .

The speaker chose the worst possible word to use in the situation. Cosmic master minds of manipulation don't do that.

[morriswalters]

"Because it doesn't have anything to do with balancing the scales of one of the Fallen lying to me," I said. "You haven't done any fortune-cookie whispers into my head have you?"

"No," he said.  "Not Yet."
"Well that's what I mean,"  I said. "The scale still isn't balanced.  And I don't think you send people back just for Kicks."

And then at Harry's awakening.

And a voice_a very calm, very gentle, very rational voice whispered in my ear, "Lies.  Mab cannot change who you are."

  7 words.


 

[nadia.skylark]

It's possible that Uriel used the word "lies" because he knew that it would have a stronger effect on Harry, and the multiple definition of the word "lie" gave him the leeway to do so.

He could have used the word "lies" because Uriel views it as a lie, since it is an untruth that would work to subvert Harry's exercise of free will, even if it is not a lie by faerie definition. As has been made clear to me in another thread, people frequently see very different things as lies, and I don't see how being different species with completely different codes of conduct would do anything but increase that tendency.

It's also possible that he was trying to warn Harry that Mab was nemfected, but if so, she appears to be resisting well for the moment.

It seems extremely unlikely that Uriel did not have control over the specific words used, given that, as I remember it, in Ghost Story Uriel makes a point of saying that one of the Fallen used seven very specific words to undermine Harry's free will.

[morriswalters]

And it was all your fault Harry.

"Lies.  Mab cannot change who you are."

And just so the reader won't miss it, Jim has Harry count to seven after the second quote.  Uriel balances the scale by undoing Mab's lie.  I think it's why he uses the word.  Mab may not be fully aware of the lie, it isn't clear.  So my lie of omission may be incorrect, but the text is what it is.

[BobbyWac]

Jumping ahead of the conversation about lies, and back to the initial post, I do think it could be Uriel or one of his agents, and I think Harry’s father is one of them. Ghost story makes it clear that the only balance for “the other side” telling him 7 words was that Uriel got to also put 7 words in his head. The entire out of body experience was voluntary. There’s nothing in there that says there haven’t been other cases where something whispered things in his head to be balanced. I’m not sure if it’s been discussed, but to reference my earlier point about Malcolm, the reason I think he’s working for Uriel’s office is that he shows up right after Shiela does and says that it’s because the other side broke the rules.

[Paviel]

Uriel wouldn't have told Harry that seven-word truth in Fool Moon unless some other angelic being had told him a seven-word lie prior to then, and angelic beings were way out of Harry's league as of Fool Moon.

[g33k]

... angelic beings were way out of Harry's league as of Fool Moon.

Harry was a Starborn wizard.  He may not have achieved great power yet, but he was far ahead of the curve for most wizards his age.  And the Angel-caliber entities will know he's Starborn, and will see his early power pointing to his upcoming puissance.

And we KNOW they play long-term and often subtle strategies...

[g33k]

Faeries do lie.
They lie automatically, reflexively.
They lie as readily as they breathe, and with far more pleasure.

They  just don't (knowingly) utter any literal falsehoods.

But they will present a suite of facts with implications designed to ensnare the attention and the emotions of the listener; imply risks that have no bearing and/or rewards that are not available (or at least, vanishingly-small chances of those risks/rewards); make the listener ACT on the hopes and fears that have been elicited, lying to the poor sod without ever actually saying anything false that "is a lie."

Substitute above "mislead" if you prefer.
I think Uriel would still call it a "lie," even if Mab (evidently) would not.

[Paviel]

Harry was a Starborn wizard.  He may not have achieved great power yet, but he was far ahead of the curve for most wizards his age.  And the Angel-caliber entities will know he's Starborn, and will see his early power pointing to his upcoming puissance.

And we KNOW they play long-term and often subtle strategies...

Did some Fallen Angel tell Harry a Lie in Storm Front or earlier in Fool Moon, though? It's not like Uriel to tell Harry a Truth for any other reason.

But then, Uriel isn't the only archangel, is he?

[g33k]

Did some Fallen Angel tell Harry a Lie in Storm Front or earlier in Fool Moon, though?

We don't know.  It's even possible that there was a lie from before or between the novels; something off-screen, or in a short or a comic.

It's not like Uriel to tell Harry a Truth for any other reason.

We don't actually know that, either.  If he felt Harry had been actively deceived, it may not have needed an actual "lie" in words, for Uriel to feel justified in Setting Things Straight.