Author Topic: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon  (Read 13364 times)

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2019, 05:01:15 PM »
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The difference between a lie and a mere mistaken impression or falsehood is in the knowledge or intent. In the example you used, the married woman would be "living a lie" if, for example, she was pretending to love her husband when she knew that her feelings weren't real. Or maybe her spouse was a criminal and she was pretending her spouse was an upstanding citizen. Either way, it is about willful blindness.

No it isn't. If the woman had believed that her husband was John Smith, a banker, when he was actually Henry James, criminal and married to someone else, then she would be living a lie without any need for willful blindness, because the definition in this case for something being a lie isn't "willful blindness," it is "founded on a mistaken impression."

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If Mab didn't think she was lying, then Mab wasn't lying, she was simply wrong. Telling a lie requires knowledge of the falsity of the statement.

Not necessarily, according to the definition I found. Seriously, I didn't make it up; it's the definition you get when you google "lie definition."

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Mother Summer tells Harry that it is possible to master the mantle, that in fact, it had been done.  And given that, Mab had to know.

Not necessarily. It could have happened before Mab's time. We already know that she wasn't the first Winter Queen.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2019, 05:29:06 PM »
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We already know that she wasn't the first Winter Queen.
We do?

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2019, 05:49:42 PM »
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We do?

Here's the WoJ:
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I was wondering if Mab was the first Winter Queen?
Jim: No.  Mab was not the first Mab.  Mab was originally Winter Lady, and Lea was her Jenny Greenteeth.  She was her sidekick and handmaiden.  And so when Mab got promoted Lea did too.  So she got to be much more powerful and awesome.  But that was a while back.  When that happened.  And the same thing with Titania.  The Winter Queens actually died.  The last time things got awful in the wizard world.  So things are about to get awful in the wizard world again and they’re a bit nervous.  They’re a bit nervous about Dresden.  Well, Titania is very nervous about Dresden.  Mab is keeping her enemies close.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2019, 07:31:48 PM »
I had forgotten.  Thank you.  However it doesn't change anything.  Cozarkian would have me believe that she is ignorant of the nature of her Knight. That's like owning a gun and not understanding the safety.  Rereading the selection where he awakes in the cave reinforces my belief.

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2019, 11:43:02 PM »
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However it doesn't change anything.  Cozarkian would have me believe that she is ignorant of the nature of her Knight. That's like owning a gun and not understanding the safety.  Rereading the selection where he awakes in the cave reinforces my belief.

Here's the WoJ:
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Jim: As far as Mab is concerned, she’s telling the truth, because she’s telling the truth from her experience, as she knows it. Dresden, however, is getting an earful of truth on a more cosmic level.
(Note: this comes from a WoJ that deals with whether or not Mab was lying. However, since it was using "lie" in the sense of definition 1 I posted rather than definition 2, I have excluded that part for clarity.)

Offline DonBugen

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Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2019, 11:53:24 PM »
Cozarkain - I get the conundrum you're talking about, but I think you might not be giving the idea that Mab's lie is a lie of omission a fair enough shake.  Faeries cannot speak lies; however, they do nothing but lie through omission.

In addition, take into account the comment to which Uriel (because it is Uriel; he's not about to go and rope some lower being into lying for him, especially considering the circumstance with Collin Murphy) responds to:

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"I have his oath, ancient one. What he has given is mine by right and you may not gainsay it. He is mine to shape as i please."
She's saying this for Harry to hear, but she's not saying it to Harry.  From the perspective that the quote is being said, it is absolutely true.  Demonreach cannot do anything to stop what she does; she has the right, not Harry, to work her will on him.  The fact that she never says "As long as he doesn't put up an epic amount of will to counteract, which almost no Winter Knight has ever done" doesn't really need to be said, as Mab's statement is truthful to the letter of the word.

Yet Harry's understanding of Mab's words is not truthful.  The Fae are deceitful, manipulative creatures, and Mab's omission here is critical.  And while a lie of omission is permissible to the Fae, it is still a lie to an Archangel of the Lord.  Therefore, Uriel is perfectly correct in stating "Lies," rather than "False" or something else.

Offline Yuillegan

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Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2019, 01:02:25 AM »
I think DonBugen and Nadia have pretty much covered what I was going to say in response, Cozarkian.

I can concede that it would have been perhaps neater to say "wrong" rather than "lies", as it leaves less room for ambiguity and I think you can see that Jim in his quote is covering that. Mab only knows what she thinks she knows, but beings like Uriel know absolute Truth. There is a significant difference. And that Mother Summer quote that Morriswalters found reinforces that. Beings with Intellectus (especially of their size of Intellectus) are on the Cosmic level. Also Angels don't lie unless they are Fallen - so even if Uriel wasn't speaking, it couldn't have been another Angel filing in. And it certainly wouldn't have been a Mortal/Soul from Purgatory - I suspect that would go against everything they are trying to do. Lying is a Sin - especially by Immortals (remember how angry Uriel gets when he discusses one of the Fallen lying?) It compromises Free Will.


As to why it was important that JB skipped that scene, I was highlighting that just because something happens explicitly in the books that could be a hint at interference by the Big Players, does not necessarily make it so. Mostly when something of that nature occurs, it happens off-screen or JB highlights it massively on screen. Which is not to say those instances of internal dialogue are not instances of the Big Players interfering, but I found it less likely because of such examples as the Ghost Story/Changes inconsistency.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2019, 02:04:17 AM »
Harry to Mab on his sickbed in Demonreach in Ghost Story.
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"You can't make me your monster," I slurred. "Doesn't work.  And you know it."

Offline Con

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Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2019, 04:34:09 AM »
Back to the intervention of powers in Fool Moon. What does everyone think of Cowl being the wizard that gave the FBI their Hexenwulf pelts. He seems like the most likely suspect to me.

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2019, 04:38:00 AM »
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Harry to Mab on his sickbed in Demonreach in Ghost Story.

Harry could be wrong.

Offline Cozarkian

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Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2019, 06:17:23 PM »
I had forgotten.  Thank you.  However it doesn't change anything.  Cozarkian would have me believe that she is ignorant of the nature of her Knight. That's like owning a gun and not understanding the safety.  Rereading the selection where he awakes in the cave reinforces my belief.

First, I was not asking you to believe that Mab doesn't understand her Knight. I was asking you to believe that Mab doesn't understand the full extent of the power of free will. Specifically, she doesn't understand that Harry giving his oath and accepting the Mantle by his own free will doesn't make him hers to mold. She doesn't understand that the Mantle can be conquered even while desiring a Knight that will fight it as long as possible.

On second thought, however, it is indisputable that Mab does not understand her Knight. I don't recall if it is text or WoJ, but we have definitive proof that Harry surprises Mab. She probably has a better understanding of Harry than he does of himself, but there are some things about him she doesn't understand.

I'm not sure the gun analogy is accurate, but if it was, I point you to the Molly short story. As Winter Lady, Molly is absolutely carrying around a full arsenal of weapons without understanding the safety features on most of them. Mab has a lot more experience than Molly and has learned the safety features for most of the Queen's weapons, but it is possible she still doesn't fully understand one or two.

Offline nadia.skylark

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Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2019, 06:21:24 PM »
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On second thought, however, it is indisputable that Mab does not understand her Knight. I don't recall if it is text or WoJ, but we have definitive proof that Harry surprises Mab. She probably has a better understanding of Harry than he does of himself, but there are some things about him she doesn't understand.

Here's the WoJ:
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Jim:The thing is that Mab never really figures Dresden quite right.  She never gets it right when she tries to predict what he will do. 

Offline Cozarkian

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Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2019, 07:25:06 PM »
In addition, take into account the comment to which Uriel (because it is Uriel; he's not about to go and rope some lower being into lying for him, especially considering the circumstance with Collin Murphy) responds to:

I'm not suggesting he did. I'm suggesting he used a proxy and didn't have control over the precise seven words used, only that the speaker was limited to seven words and that those words should be used to deliver the message that Mab was incorrect. This would be similar to the TWG inspiring the Bible but not writing it. It's also similar to how Mab used proxies in the very same story. Unlike Demonreach, who appears to have literally spoke through his proxy, Mab merely gave her proxies (Leah and Inez) instructions/inspiration regarding what she wanted Harry to know. Mab's proxies actual words were their own.

Cozarkain - I get the conundrum you're talking about, but I think you might not be giving the idea that Mab's lie is a lie of omission a fair enough shake.  Faeries cannot speak lies; however, they do nothing but lie through omission.

In the Mab quote you provided, the first sentence is true, the second is true, the third is false but Mab believes it to be true. The WOJ in the post above yours proves that Mab believes the third sentence to be true and is not merely lying by omission. Also, the question here isn't actually whether Mab was lying. She wasn't, because she can't. The issue is that the speaker called Mab a liar, which conflicts with our understanding that the Fae can't lie.

The first question is whether Uriel could have called Mab's words "Lies" without bearing false witness. In response, others have argued that the word lie has multiple definitions. I disagree that the other definitions apply. The DV, at least when talking about the Fae, uses strictly the traditional definition (lies of omission, by definition in the DV, are not lies). It is fact that the Fae cannot lie, period. The only definition applicable in the DV (at least when discussing the Fae) is the traditional definition. Switching to another definition is equivocating (an informal logical fallacy).

I simply do not believe Uriel, a being with cosmic truth with a perfect understanding of the lie-prohibition on the Fae, when speaking to Harry, a person Uriel knows to also understand the lie-prohibition against the Fae, would equivocate on the definition of lie. That is especially true given the circumstance that Uriel was not attempting to mislead Harry but rather was attempting to educate Harry on a very important truth - that Harry still has free will even after becoming the WK. It simply doesn't pass the smell test.

Therefore, in my opinion, it was either a very minor and isolated incident of bad writing, or it was a clue that Uriel was using a proxy in a story where proxies were an important theme.

Offline Cozarkian

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Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2019, 07:27:53 PM »
Harry could be wrong.

Also, Mab can learn. Mab could believed have believed that she could make Harry her monster in GS and then, when Harry defied her, she learned that she was wrong and obtained a better understanding of free will.

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2019, 08:16:30 PM »
Harry surprises her, but that isn't to say she doesn't understand how the Mantle works.  Those are two separate issues.  Uriel didn't say she was wrong, he said her words were lies.  Jim doesn't leave a whole lot of room to maneuver in this instance.   He says  Mab can't lie.  Uriel says her words are lies.  And Harry tells her she knows it.  Had Harry told her instead at that moment that she was wrong or mistaken I might feel differently about it, but he didn't.

From the Wikipedia.
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Lying by omission, also known as a continuing misrepresentation or quote mining, occurs when an important fact is left out in order to foster a misconception. Lying by omission includes the failure to correct pre-existing misconceptions.
Just as an aside, the bit about the Mab being unable to lie, is a shortcut.  More properly she can't speak a direct lie.  Here is an example of a lie of omission from Summer Knight.  It's a play on his expectations.
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Mab placed her gloved hand on my wounded one, and a sudden spike of sheer, vicious cold shot up through the injury like a frozen scalpel before lancing up my arm, straight toward my heart. It took my breath, and I felt my heart skip a beat, two, before it labored into rhythm again. I gasped and swayed, and only leaning against the door kept me from falling down completely.
"Dammit," I muttered, trying to keep my voice down. "We had a deal."
"I agreed not to punish you for refusing me, wizard. I agreed not to punish or harass you by proxy." Mab smiled. "I did that just for spite."