Lea and the Adversary

[morriswalters]

While fact checking a post elsewhere, I reread an exchange between Harry and Lea prior to her showing him the Stone Table in Summer Knight. Here is the exchange.

Lea completed her circuit of the table and stopped beside me. She glanced furtively around her, then looked me in the eyes and said, her voice barely audible, "Child. Should you survive this conflict, do not let Mab bring you here. Never."

This is foreshadowing of Mab wanting Harry to become the Winter Knight. But while Lea's debt to Margaret would explain why she makes him aware of the Stone Table and its purpose. It does not explain why she would or could, warn him against Mab's plan.  And she fears Mab knowing that she has done so.  In this exchange in Changes we will see that Mab is now aware the Lea warned him.  Because Lea says I told you so in Mab's presence.

“I warned you,” said a calm voice behind me. “Never let her bring you here, my godchild.”

Mab's lack of response tells us that Mab knows and Lea is no long afraid that she does.  Lea then tells Harry that Mab is angry and Mab punishes her for doing so, by slashing her face.

My godmother bowed her head to Mab, and the cold voice came from her mouth again. “It is not for my handmaiden to judge or question me, nor to speak for me upon her own account.”

So returning now to Summer Knight with this context, I'm calling this Lea's downfall.  We see everybody in the battle for the Stone Table but Lea.  And in a fight for power she should have been there.  I think this is when Lea is revealed to Mab as Nemfected.

Opinions?  I may be reading too much into this.

[123Chikadee]

I dunno, I think you're onto something. Jim does play the long game in terms of foreshadowing.
Maybe after being nemfected, Lea had some personality changes, and she isn't as afraid of Mab after all that as happened.
Maybe Margaret and Mab's long term plans for Harry are at cross-purposes? Ok, so yeah, that's probably true already, at face value but still it could run even deeper than that.

[Arjan]

"Shame, child, is for those who fail to live up to the ideal of what they believe they should be." She waved her hand. "It was shame that drove me to my queen, to beseech her aid." Her long, delicate fingers idly moved to the streaks of white in her otherwise flawless red tresses.
"But she showed me the way back to myself, through exquisite pain, and now I am here to watch over my dear godson--and the rest of you, as long as it is quite convenient."

Lea tried to fight the infection herself, she tried to stay herself, she tried to preserve her nature but was failing and recognised it. So she went to Mab, she turned herself in. This is confirmed in Proven Guilty where we see a Lea battling with herself telling Harry it is not yet safe to free her.

There she talks about the infection:

Some of the strength seemed to ebb from her, and she suddenly seemed exhausted. “I grew too arrogant with the power I held. I thought I could overcome

what stalks us all

. Foolish. Milady Queen Mab taught me the error of my ways.”

Both are references to Nemesis, a sspiritual infection. It came with the power of the knife.
 

[morriswalters]

I know she is Nemfected.  What I'm trying to establish is how long she was off the leash before Mab put her in the deep freeze.

edit restated the point.

[Mira]

I know she is Nemfected.  What I'm trying to establish is how long she was off the leash before Mab put her in the deep freeze.

edit restated the point.

I had written a thread about this myself maybe a couple of years ago when I began to reread the series.  Knowing what we know now, it does sound like Lea was infected before she got the Knife.
Now she may have been unaware that she was infected and was being used by the Enemy..  One of the clues that she was was her seeming ambition and opposition to Mab.. Notice after her stay in the deep freeze both her ambition and her opposition disappear.   

[Arjan]

Whe know the knife was the source of the infection and she got it in grave peril. How the infection works can differ from person to person, it was quite crude and almost immediate with cat sith, so the influence started probably quite fast in grave peril but Lea only became aware of how treacherous the gift was much later. Mab was not aware of that during summer knight. The rest is guessing but I think Lea infected Maeve first and Maeve infected aurora. I prefer a single source of infection because ir it was easy to bring infective material from beyond the gates the war would have been over already.

[Mira]

Whe know the knife was the source of the infection and she got it in grave peril. How the infection works can differ from person to person, it was quite crude and almost immediate with cat sith, so the influence started probably quite fast in grave peril but Lea only became aware of how treacherous the gift was much later. Mab was not aware of that during summer knight. The rest is guessing but I think Lea infected Maeve first and Maeve infected aurora. I prefer a single source of infection because ir it was easy to bring infective material from beyond the gates the war would have been over already.

Yes, however there was something slightly off about Lea before the Knife..  While yes, Harry misusing the Sword trying to kill her lost it to her, what were her motives to trade it for the Knife in
the first place?  She didn't want it to give to her queen, she wanted it to supplant her  queen, I don't think that is normal even in Fae politics..  When Maeve became exposed to the Knife later, she too wanted to overthrow her mother.

[Arjan]

Yes, however there was something slightly off about Lea before the Knife..  While yes, Harry misusing the Sword trying to kill her lost it to her, what were her motives to trade it for the Knife in
the first place?  She didn't want it to give to her queen, she wanted it to supplant her  queen, I don't think that is normal even in Fae politics..  When Maeve became exposed to the Knife later, she too wanted to overthrow her mother.

I do not think that is especially strange for winter, of course she wants power for herself. She saw an opportunity to seize power and she took it. She is not changed in that respect either though she might be somewhat more carefull. The ambition in itself is totally winter, it is also for that reason that Molly has to swat them down all the time but she should act inside the rules

After she got the knife she got infected and her thoughts and actions got influenced or even dictated by Nemesis. She stopped obeying the rules.

Nemesis builds on an existing base, Maeves resentment to her mother was also not new she was neglecting her job long before she was infected after all.

[Mira]

I do not think that is especially strange for winter, of course she wants power for herself. She saw an opportunity to seize power and she took it. She is not changed in that respect either though she might be somewhat more carefull. The ambition in itself is totally winter, it is also for that reason that Molly has to swat them down all the time but she should act inside the rules

After she got the knife she got infected and her thoughts and actions got influenced or even dictated by Nemesis. She stopped obeying the rules.

Nemesis builds on an existing base, Maeves resentment to her mother was also not new she was neglecting her job long before she was infected after all.

Or had Lea gone against the rules by taking the Knife in the first place?  Maeve did prehaps resent her mother and was neglecting her job, but she wasn't trying to kill and gain her mother's place before the infection..   This is why Mab says, "it was the Knife.." 

[Arjan]

Or had Lea gone against the rules by taking the Knife in the first place?  Maeve did prehaps resent her mother and was neglecting her job, but she wasn't trying to kill and gain her mother's place before the infection..   This is why Mab says, "it was the Knife.."

It is not against the rules to take power if you can arrange it within the rules and that is exactly what she thought she was doing but it was a treacherous gift, she was betrayed.

It was completely within the rules, she even arranged for an equivalent gift to keep balance. She only got arrogant after she came under influence and she felt shame because of that.

[Mira]

It is not against the rules to take power if you can arrange it within the rules and that is exactly what she thought she was doing but it was a treacherous gift, she was betrayed.

It was completely within the rules, she even arranged for an equivalent gift to keep balance. She only got arrogant after she came under influence and she felt shame because of that.

   Just what are the rules?  Is there a quote or WOJ?   Consider what Lea said in Proven Guilty when
Harry found her packed in ice.
 

"I grew too arrogant with the power I held. I thought I could overcome what stalks us all. Milady Queen Mab taught me the error of my ways."

Then on the next page.

"I cannot yet be trusted.  It is not time.  I would not fulfill my promise to your mother, should you free me now.  You must leave."

Perhaps she did grow arrogant with the power she held and that was how the Enemy was able to tempt her.  She also thought she could over come the infection on her own...  Knowing Mab as we
know her, unless there was mitigating circumstances like being infected, do you honestly think she'd even consider giving her a second chance?  She speaks of trust, if the Winter Court was all about power struggles as you suggest, it wouldn't be an issue... Especially before she got the Knife, if there wasn't evidence that she was infected before, I think Mab simply would have killed her, not treated her.   

[Arjan]

   Just what are the rules?  Is there a quote or WOJ?   

Only what we can infer from the books but I think that is enough. Winter is about struggle for power. The dagger was just too big a temptation for most beings of winter. Trying to get stronger is what is expected from you in winter. It is all in what Lea teaches Harry as well.

Consider what Lea said in Proven Guilty when
Harry found her packed in ice.

That was about after she became infected. Before that, before the dagger, she was just the normal Lea. It was the struggle to preserve that Lea that drove her to Mab, because she was failing.

Then on the next page.

Perhaps she did grow arrogant with the power she held and that was how the Enemy was able to tempt her. 

The dagger is power, only magical power of considerable size can probably contain an infection.

She also thought she could over come the infection on her own...  Knowing Mab as we
know her, unless there was mitigating circumstances like being infected, do you honestly think she'd even consider giving her a second chance? 

Of course she was infected. What I read in your text is that she was infected before she accepted the dagger and that is contrary to what both Mab en Lea said and not a necessary condition for picking up the dagger in the first place because thirst for power is a perfectly acceptable motive for that.

She speaks of trust, if the Winter Court was all about power struggles as you suggest, it wouldn't be an issue...

The trust is in things typical fairy like not being able to lie and keeping balance. It is about the rules she can not break and oaths given. The infected can break these things and so can not be trusted.

It is about how Harry can trust Lea and can not trust Lea.

Especially before she got the Knife, if there wasn't evidence that she was infected before, I think Mab simply would have killed her, not treated her.   

She was quite clear in dead beat about the value of Lea as a vassal. The point was that she could be cured and that it was worthwhile, the exact moment of infection was not really important for that. The other thing was that she was her vassal and asked her liege for help. Mab might not even be able to refuse that help under these circumstances.

[morriswalters]

Mab specifically points out Morgana's Athame as the source of the infection.  Having the Athame wouldn't make  a difference as long as the relative power remained the same.

During our last encounter I returned to Faerie with great power and upset vital balances. Those balances had to be redressed, and your debt was the mechanism that the Queen chose to employ."

For some reason, Harry=Athame.  This is reasonable if you assume Mab and Lea are aware of things we are not.

I think Mab simply would have killed her, not treated her.

No.  She also didn't kill Slade.  Lea represents power. Much as Slade's Winter Mantle represented power.  Who would replace her?

[Mira]

Mab specifically points out Morgana's Athame as the source of the infection.  Having the Athame wouldn't make  a difference as long as the relative power remained the same.

Yes, but in reference to her daughter, not necessarily Lea..  Having the Athame would make a difference since it is very much a symbol of power, it could also have given Lea and advantage over Mab.. These things do not happen in a void,  Doing the reread, Lea was indeed off just a bit pre-party in Grave Peril.   

No.  She also didn't kill Slade.  Lea represents power. Much as Slade's Winter Mantle represented power.  Who would replace her?

Apples to oranges...  Slade wasn't infected as far as we know, if it is true that humans cannot be infected, he wasn't..  He just worked with Aurora to betray Mab..  So Mab made him suffer, she also kept him around until she could get Harry.  I think many of us are in agreement that Aurora was infected.. She had no contact with the Knife, since that was pre Knife.. If she was, then it is possible that Lea also was.  Remember Aurora's madness wasn't all that apparent at first either until she was so far gone that she had to die, just as Maeve had to die.  Lea is important to Mab and was judged not to be so far gone as she could be cured.. But if she couldn't be cured or if her attempt at a power grab was sans infection?   Yeah, Mab would have had her be dead and worried about a replacement later.

She was quite clear in dead beat about the value of Lea as a vassal. The point was that she could be cured and that it was worthwhile, the exact moment of infection was not really important for that. The other thing was that she was her vassal and asked her liege for help. Mab might not even be able to refuse that help under these circumstances.

So?  Maeve was her daughter, and her Winter Lady yet Mab ordered her death...

[Arjan]

So?  Maeve was her daughter, and her Winter Lady yet Mab ordered her death...

Mab wanted to safe Maeve but she needed Maeves help for it to succeed. Lea fought for her sanity and asked Mab for help, She fought her infection. Maeve embraced it and so even Mab could not help her.

Mab would have helped Maeve if she wanted to be helped. Now she could only have her killed.

“It isn’t too late,” Sarissa said. “You know how she lays her plans. She prepares for everything. But it doesn’t have to happen that way. The Leanansidhe was sick and Mother helped her. But her power alone isn’t enough to heal you. You have to want it, Maeve. You have to want to be healed.”

But she did not want it. She had no shame like Lea had:

Then she lifted her head and stared venomously at Sarissa. “I am strong, Sarissa. Stronger than I have ever been. Here, now, stronger than she is.” Her lips quivered and twitched back from her teeth into a hideous mockery of a smile. “Why should I want to be healed of that?”

She did not fight it so Mab could not help her.