Blood rites question

[kbrizzle]

What do you think about the presence of both Blamps & Whamps in this book? It seems to me that Mavra was looking to take on Lord Raith eventually, which makes sense given his role in the current irrelevance of the BCV. However, I feel like something more was going on there.

[apgrey]

  There is a long standing grudge between the White and Black Courts.  In the Dresden universe, Bram Stoker was a White Court agent who published a guide on how to destroy Black Court vampires.
  It is not surprising that one of the Black Court would act against Lord Raith.

APG

[raidem]

There seemed to be some weirdness between Thomas and Mavra.  Or at least, there was some understood agreement behind the scenes between the two.  Reading the books it seemed like Thomas was safe from Mavra.

[Bad Alias]

From what was in the book, it seemed that Mavra was not targeting the Raiths, but was happy to take them out along with Harry.

From what we know outside of the book, more was going on than we knew or maybe even know now. The White King was in with outsiders. Black Court is connected to outsiders. Mavra was setting up Harry for blackmail (or maybe that was just plan B). To my recollection, Blood Rites is the only book where there are two basically unrelated plots happening simultaneously that don't turn out to be the same case by the end of the book. To me, it seems like an oddity that may be pointing to something more.

[Snark Knight]

From what was in the book, it seemed that Mavra was not targeting the Raiths, but was happy to take them out along with Harry.

Marva wasn't even seriously trying to take out Harry. If she'd wanted him dead, she had at least the chance to cap him from behind a veil instead of collecting blackmail polaroids for later. Or just pitched a rock through his head at a considerable fraction of the speed of sound rather than send minions to threaten him.

At most, sending her progeny after him to provoke him into attacking the nest was analogous to Mab's tests or Mother Winter's display with the cleaver. The point isn't to kill him, but if he fails to handle a little challenge it just shows he wasn't worth manipulating after all.

[Mira]

Marva wasn't even seriously trying to take out Harry. If she'd wanted him dead, she had at least the chance to cap him from behind a veil instead of collecting blackmail polaroids for later. Or just pitched a rock through his head at a considerable fraction of the speed of sound rather than send minions to threaten him.

At most, sending her progeny after him to provoke him into attacking the nest was analogous to Mab's tests or Mother Winter's display with the cleaver. The point isn't to kill him, but if he fails to handle a little challenge it just shows he wasn't worth manipulating after all.

Yeah, I think she figured if she was able to blackmail him he was of use to her alive than dead.

[Bad Alias]

Marva wasn't even seriously trying to take out Harry. If she'd wanted him dead, she had at least the chance to cap him from behind a veil instead of collecting blackmail polaroids for later. Or just pitched a rock through his head at a considerable fraction of the speed of sound rather than send minions to threaten him.

At most, sending her progeny after him to provoke him into attacking the nest was analogous to Mab's tests or Mother Winter's display with the cleaver. The point isn't to kill him, but if he fails to handle a little challenge it just shows he wasn't worth manipulating after all.

I don't disagree. That's why I used the qualifier.

[kbrizzle]

Regarding the speculation that Mavra was testing Harry to see if he was worthy of blackmail; I don’t agree. I think Mavra correctly guessed that 1-3 Blamps (even newly turned ones) were enough to kidnap Harry if they struck at the right time. The 2x the Blamps attacked, Harry was only really able to get away thanks to Thomas & Mouse in the first instance & then with the Malocchio + 2 Whamps in the second instance. Mavra is doing all this to turn Harry. She has total control of her minions, so she would be able to control Harry completely as well. Blackmailing Harry is plan B.

I think the reason Mavra doesn’t directly attack Harry in the book is that she is at some level afraid of him. If you think about it, she knew that he had an outside chance of beating the necromancers in Dead Beat - something Harry would need a lot of skill & smarts to be able to do. She probably knows that he is a Starborn, & that despite being severely weakened, he was able to defeat her & Bianca’s plan & eventually kill the latter. Therefore Mavra believes that there is a small but significant chance that Harry would be to kill her if she attacked him directly.

Here is some speculation from the BCV’s actions in the fight scene with Harry, Thomas, Lara & Inari:

• Mavra’s intel on the Raith family is spot-on - when the Blamps who were following Harry come upon the fight ongoing involving Lara, Inari & Thomas, they correctly called Lara “Raith’s second in command”, Thomas “Raith’s bastard son” & the “one who betrayed us” & Inari was referred to as Raith’s favorite child. Harry was the target here, the Whamps were opportunistic
• The Blamps were newbies but immensely strong. One-ear was trying to transform Lara, a Whamp, into a Blamp fairly confidently. I think the Blamps were stronger than usual because they were directly converted by Mavra. My other guess is that Lara would be able to become a Blamp because as a Whamp she still has a soul

[kbrizzle]

My WAG about why Mavra is in town is to accomplish 2 goals:
to turn Harry, & then to use the turned Harry to take out Lord Raith.

Mavra has made an alliance with Thomas to take out Lord Raith following the events of Grave Peril. Note that Lara is surprised that Thomas is “entering the game” & that he is doing so at that time (however she doesn’t know of his alliance with Mavra). While Mavra is impressed with Thomas’ performance in Grave Peril, she knows that more is needed to be able to kill Lord Raith since he is magically protected (sponsored by Outsiders most likely); she needs a Starborn to overcome this. Thomas backs out of the deal when he realizes that Mavra is going Harry - this is why One-ear the Blamp refers to Thomas as “the one who betrayed us”.

@raidem
Totally agree

[KurtinStGeorge]

This is a small point, but I find it interesting that the first time Mavra sends one of her minions at Harry, it's when he's in a car; with Thomas, entering the apartment or condo complex where Arturo Genosa is having a party announcing his new movie.  After the attack both Thomas and Harry become aware that someone/something else is out there.  We can be 100% certain it was Mavra.

So why was Mavra there?  I ask this because she had her minion take the place of the security guard before Harry and Thomas drove up.  To refresh your memories, the guard wasn't dead, he was having coffee at the front door with a second security guard instead of being at his post.  This meant Mavra was already there and saw an opportunity to test/attack Harry when the guard left his usual position.  (Unless Mavra has the ability to make long-range mental suggestions to ordinary mortals like; " I should get some coffee now," which I don't remember ever being listed as a power of the Black Court.)

So did Mavra know Harry and Thomas were on their way their way to see Genosa?  This would be odd because Harry didn't know he was on his way to Genosa's before Thomas talked him into going to see him.  The implications of that are disturbing, to say the least.  Was Thomas in league with Mavra, at least to a point?  Even if Mavra had one of her minions following Harry and or Thomas all night, and occasionally checking in via long-range mental communication, Mavra was already outside Genosa's.  An alternative explanation; which also seems odd but not impossible, is Mavra was scouting Genosa because she wanted to find out how an ordinary mortal was defying or avoiding the control the King of the White Court.  Harry's appearance gave her an opportunity to test or attack the wizard.  Did she even know Thomas was with Harry?  Perhaps not.   

There's one other odd moment in BR.  During the fight with Mavra's minions, the one ear'd black court vamp says, "Raith's second in command," the vampire rasped. "As well as the White who betrayed us. Now you're both mine."  When did Thomas betray them?  Bianca betrayed Thomas, so you can hardly blame him for then taking Harry's side.  Unless that betrayal didn't happen at Bianca's at all.

[kbrizzle]

@Kurtin
I believe Mavra was performing recon on Genosa, given her level of intel about the Raith family. Check out my previous post in this thread about what alliance is being discussed.

[morriswalters]

We can be 100% certain it was Mavra.

Just being picky, 100 percent is certainty, Harry never sees her.  And later in the book Harry will state that Marvra can communicate over long ranges.

"Mavra is good at veils," I said, mostly to Kincaid. "Real good. She did some long range mental communications last night, too."

@kbrizzle
You state elsewhere that the Blacks are the youngest.  However in Blood Rites it states.

The vampires of the Black Court had been around since the dawn of human memory.

This WOJ says.

Drakul wasn’t a scion of anything! He was something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form. Dracula was his half-human child, who naturally had enormous paternal issues, and wound up creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire in an effort to win his father’s approval.
It didn’t work out so well.

We seem to have a problem.

Ebenezar shook his head. "Dracula was the son of Drakul, and pretty pale and skinny by comparison. Went to the Black Court as a kind of teenage rebellion.

JB needs to keep better notes and the Black Court would seem to be the oldest.

[kbrizzle]

@morriswalters

Who/ where does it say that Blamps are as old as human memory? I don’t recall this line - but if it’s true, I’d have to flip my theory to vampires “evolving” from Black>Red>White instead

[morriswalters]

That's a direct quote from blood rights, after they encounter the first Blamp at Genosa's.  JB retcons it in his WOJ.  That's why three quotes.

[isoycrazy]

The best answer is that Eb is wrong and doesn't have all the information.   He thinks Drac joined the Blamps.  He doesn't know they were his making.