Any news on Peace Talks

[Mira]

I wasn't making a judgement on what I thought of my experience reading both series. For people who choose to write for a living then sales are the only metric that counts.  Jim uses the money to afford the lifestyle that he wants to live.  So does Rowling. If they didn't get paid they wouldn't be writing.

The biggest problem with both writers was and is that the books got bloated as they went along.

  Agreed, edit, edit, edit....  An author really guilty of writing bloated books in a series that goes on way too long is Terry Goodkind, his "Sword of Truth" series.

[Bad Alias]

I assume that's [vampires] what you're [me] talking about.

I just grabbed a quote from tvtropes and eliminated the references to style, tone, and themes as they didn't have anything to do with what we were talking about.

I think there is a lot in the first few books that Jim changed later on that can be explained away. If we're going to use the retcon to describe it, I'd call it a light retconning because it's more of a "that's a bit of a stretch" situation than a "that's clearly not how it used to be" situation.

The vampire thing can easily be explained away by pointing out that Harry was pretty ignorant about vampires at that point, as can most suspected changes.

I think that the way magic interacts with technology is a bit off in Grave Peril. The whole guns malfunctioning thing kind of just goes away. There's a few throw away lines about newer, better maintained guns.

[morriswalters]

  Agreed, edit, edit, edit....  An author really guilty of writing bloated books in a series that goes on way too long is Terry Goodkind, his "Sword of Truth" series.

I've never read him.  A lot of good books trying to get your attention is the problem.  And solving that problem is more luck than good writing.  When I was young lurid book covers worked as well as anything. Possibly some cheesy sex.  Jim pays homage to the idea with the bodice rippers for Bob.  Although he could dial it back just a little.  In a small way it reminds me of the Doc Savage books.  The tone, rather than the content. 

I won't live to see it, if it were to happen,  but Butcher could make Mab the focus of her own hero story, dying for the ideal of protecting mortals.  It has the potential to really pound Dresden emotionally, to realize what Mab gave up to guard the gates.  Anyway....

@Bad Alias

One of the better things about the books is that Jim will retcon if it makes the story stronger.  Keeping too much technology out kills the story.

[Snark Knight]

I don't think Jim's later books have been getting noticeably bloated. They're only middle of the genre pack for length, the plots are still tight, and most of the deeper worldbuilding background elements that have come up were foreshadowed early on.

The DF is nowhere near Sword of Truth (which took an unfortunate turn into political allegory, as well as introducing new elements late in the game) or Wheel of Time (that just meandered and drew plots out past what they needed) for bloat.

[morriswalters]

We'll see after Peace Talks.  The Butter's plot line is fraught and he's going to need to exercise care.  And I don't know that it was needed, I think he wanted to write that chase on a skateboard and turn expectations on its head.  And I don't know that it was needed.  But then again he built a house in the West and I live in a condo.

[g33k]

... I think he wanted to write that chase on a skateboard and turn expectations on its head.  And I don't know that it was needed...

I think Jim spent so long building Butters up as the comic little not-a-credible-threat nerd -- whose highest aspiration to Hero'dom is gnawing (briefly) on a villain's leg -- that we'll be seeing a fair bit of Jim building-up New Butters as a smart hero, using wits and Science! and magical Inspector Bob-Gadget'ry (in addition to being a Jedi Knight of the Cross).  I think that's why we saw, e.g. the Skateboard of Awesome (also, I'm willing to bet that somebody in Jim's life (maybe Jim himself) is a 'board fan; just sayin' ).

[Mira]

I think Jim spent so long building Butters up as the comic little not-a-credible-threat nerd -- whose highest aspiration to Hero'dom is gnawing (briefly) on a villain's leg -- that we'll be seeing a fair bit of Jim building-up New Butters as a smart hero, using wits and Science! and magical Inspector Bob-Gadget'ry (in addition to being a Jedi Knight of the Cross).  I think that's why we saw, e.g. the Skateboard of Awesome (also, I'm willing to bet that somebody in Jim's life (maybe Jim himself) is a 'board fan; just sayin' ).

But he always was a hero in the eyes of his fans, from the very beginning.  Remember before he was introduced he stood up for the truth of his scientific findings at great cost.  Yes, he relented some, but so did Galileo so he'd have some career left.   In Dead Beat, scared out of his mind, yes, but willing to help Harry as best he could.  "Polka will never die!"

[morriswalters]

To make Butter's a Knight Jim had...
Create the most overpowered weapon in the books.
Have a Jew carry a weapon forged with the nails of Jesus's crucifix, which is somewhat dubious.

At 46 Butters is on the decline of aging.  The sword can't be used directly against other swords, it cuts steel.  It's a killing weapon with no weight to speak of and no one in the Dresden Files knows how to wield that type of weapon unless there is a Jedi Knight around that I haven't seen.  This type of thing could and might play hell with Jim's story.  Having said that, this is Jim's book and he, of course, is the guy with the mind that puts it on paper.  May the force be with him.

[Mr. Death]

  Agreed, edit, edit, edit....  An author really guilty of writing bloated books in a series that goes on way too long is Terry Goodkind, his "Sword of Truth" series.

Oh lord. Especially his newer stuff -- in one, Richard spends 200 goddamn pages in a cave, most of which is spent with him learning about the "unholy half dead" zombie things over and over again.

Like, there's no memory charm, and he's not learning anything new about them, he just keeps finding out through the cave carvings that they exist, and every single time it's treated as a revelation.

Damn near made me put the book down entirely right then and there.

[g33k]

Create the most overpowered weapon in the books.

That's Amoracchius (at least, amongst the Swords).

The new lightshow is tactically interesting, sure (and egregiously fun fanservice!); but essentially irrelevant.

WoJ says:

We’ll probably get the new wielder of Fidelacchius in Book 14 or 15. Um, Amoracchius is gonna, uh…(Jim chuckles evilly), that’s gonna be apocalypse time by the time we get [unintelligible].  Amoracchius is not one of those Swords that really rampages around the world very often, and when if does, you’ve heard about it, so…

( _{https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-future-df-works/} )
Also note the Bible -- "... these three abide: Faith, Hope, and Love.  And the greatest of these is Love."  (And if you wanna get really interesting, note this was NOT originally written in English, and the other common translation of that "Greatest of these" is CHARITY).

Or the Grail, and/or other items from Hades' vault.  At least to Harry's psychic senses:

... a combined aura that made the thrumming power of a roused Amoracchius seem like a low-wattage lightbulb in comparison.

(emphasis added -- not Amoracchius "whenever" but Amoracchius roused.)

Or magic itself!  Again, WoJ:

Q:  What are the upper levels of magic?
A:  There are none, if the person has enough juice.  If someone was strong enough, they could completely rewrite reality.

( _{https://wordof.jim-butcher.com/index.php/word-of-jim-woj-compilation/woj-on-magic-in-the-dresden-files/} )

 

[g33k]

... Have a Jew carry a weapon forged with the nails of Jesus's crucifix, which is somewhat dubious ...

huh?

Shiro was Buddhist, not even one of the People of the Book.  Sanya calls himself an atheist, but admits to -- maybe -- being agnostic (when pressed).

I mean, Jesus was a Jew!  Matthew 1:1 also cites him as from the line of Kings, the Davidic house (regarding the importance of which, note how Jim is going to great lengths to demonstrate how important a Kingly lineage is).

A whole bunch of "Christian" words -- like "Messiah" and "Hallelujah" -- are Hebrew.  All those -el names, Raphael, Uriel, Michael... they come from Hebrew, where "-el" means "of God."

During Jesus' lifetime (and his direct disciples) "Christianity" was a sect of Judaism; specifically, the sect that believed the prophesied Messiah had in fact arrived.

There's STILL groups like "Messianic Jews" (some of whom are mere revanchist Christians (trying to proselytize the unconverted Jews), but some are genuine practicing Jews who believe the Messiah has come and given them a New Testament).

Are you going back to that whole "Jews killed Jesus, and therefore are Eeeevil!" rationalization?
 

[Snark Knight]

To make Butter's a Knight Jim had...
Create the most overpowered weapon in the books.

I don't think it really is, though. We've already seen Michael use Amoracchius to cut through steel like it was paper a couple times in Death Masks - stabbing a squire through a security door in the airport, and cutting through the roof of the train to go after Deirdre. The Swords are already effectively lightsabers when they're on mission. All that was new in SG was that it doesn't actually matter whether the steel blade is there or not, but it's not like anyone thought it was the physical blade leaving red-hot holes where it goes through sheet metal.

And the narration couldn't have been clearer about the Swords being relatively minor in comparison to the artifacts from Hades' vault. It remains to be seen how accurate Harry is about them being weapons, but there doesn't seem to be much doubt about the spearhead / knife.

[morriswalters]

Are you going back to that whole "Jews killed Jesus, and therefore are Eeeevil!" rationalization?

Being an atheist your point is lost on me.

In none of the fights involving the swords did one sword cut through another leaving behind white hot metal.  I'm thinking of the fight on the train.

Nicodemus attacked in the moment Michael's attention was elsewhere. The Denarian's weapon blurred, and Michael barely managed to get Amoracchius into a parry. He was thrown off balance and to one knee for a fatal second, but Sanya roared and attacked, whipping his saber through whistling arcs, and driving Nicodemus back. The Russian drove the Denarian toward the far side of the car.

And here comes Butter's, snickity, snick.  Nic is done.

[Snark Knight]

In none of the fights involving the swords did one sword cut through another leaving behind white hot metal.  I'm thinking of the fight on the train. And here comes Butter's, snickity, snick.  Nic is done.

The swords' power has always been variable according to the circumstances, though. As I said, they have cut metal other than opposing blades in ways a physical blade obviously can't on a couple other occasions, and their mystical power varies in some combination of response to both the bearer and the current adversary. Fidelacchius gives Harry a fighting chance wrestling with Nicodemus, but it lights up like a freaking meteor for Karrin against Deirdre.

And I think Fidelacchius starting to act like a lightsaber all the time when it was thrown to Butters may have just possibly been influenced by the fact that the one throwing it had the very probable spear of destiny - which is legendarily supposed to confer victory on the side that carries it - stuffed up his sleeve at the moment.

[Yuillegan]

The swords' power has always been variable according to the circumstances, though. As I said, they have cut metal other than opposing blades in ways a physical blade obviously can't on a couple other occasions, and their mystical power varies in some combination of response to both the bearer and the current adversary. Fidelacchius gives Harry a fighting chance wrestling with Nicodemus, but it lights up like a freaking meteor for Karrin against Deirdre.

And I think Fidelacchius starting to act like a lightsaber all the time when it was thrown to Butters may have just possibly been influenced by the fact that the one throwing it had the very probable spear of destiny - which is legendarily supposed to confer victory on the side that carries it - stuffed up his sleeve at the moment.

This^^

The swords, like Mouse, like pretty much any really significant power - are incredible and unstoppable in the right circumstances. Mouse powered up by the Carpenter house is much stronger than when powered up by Dresden's poor threshold ("from the Thing to the Hulk" WOJ). The Archangels and the Mothers and the Walkers are incredibly powerful, but only in very specific situations. Choice seems to unlock the power, but so does destiny (which one could argue is the result of a line of choices - no wonder you can't fight fate). Harry was never a Knight of the Cross, and so could never wield a blade like one. Although I do admit, Jim does seem to vary the powers of the Swords a lot. Early Michael was way less powerful than later Michael, despite the damaged leg. Karen makes them all look pitiful, and despite Shiro supposedly being a Sword-Saint we never saw him unleash the way Karen did. Sanya is as true KotC but has he ever been as strong as the others? A good argument might be that Jim needed to super-charge them for the writing later in the series as events demanded. Also perhaps one could argue as the stakes get higher, so does the power of the swords increase (we are getting close to the end of the world).

But mostly it seems situational, and not always obvious. Sanya does more than merely kill armies of baddies - he provides Hope when all hope is lost. He carried the burden of being the sole KotC when none were available. And he did not fail or falter or shirk his duties. That isn't nothing. In some ways, it is greater than any one act of combat we have seen so far. Like in Lord of the Rings, it is the little things that make the difference.

The fact that Harry carried the Spear of Destiny (or Longinus) is definitely worth remembering. The power to warp reality and probability so that all conflicts go your way? Greater than any of those swords or any spell that we have seen. Perhaps it supercharged Butter's sword, perhaps not (which is likely considering it functionally worked the same in the short story). But the fact that Harry carried it with him in hopeless odds, and won, should not be overlooked.