Molly

[Mr. Death]

The idea that Molly can cust end her apprenticeship is false, she would be just the apprentice who ran away and Harry would be obliged to run after her and kill her as a warlock or bring her back to him. Suicidal choices are free willed choices but I do not expect people to go for them.

And her apprenticeship would be over, so yes, she can just end her apprenticeship.

I'm not saying it's a good idea -- whether it's good or bad is entirely beside the point. THe point is, she has a choice. Just like she has a choice with Lea.

Molly could have visited her friends more than she did probably but staying with them was not smart. The white council is not a unified block and some of them have different ways of looking and Carlos looking away would have become difficult if he got specific information.

And who's going to give him this specific information? Molly's friends are already not telling him where she is, and do you think it's public information what goes on inside Marcone's literal fortress?

And how much resources do you really think the White Council is putting toward finding Molly? To date, the resources we've seen "looking" for her is Carlos.

The angelic guards would not and the bff could not defend against a group of wardens.

Because the White Council is going to be willing to go to war against another signatory of the accords just to track down a single warlock?

Seriously, guys. Molly is not that important to the White Council. If they were willing to put that kind of resources into getting to her, they would have done so already.

As is, they sent Carlos.

And when Molly started training with Lea Winter Lady was not the most likely outcome she could have expected. It was not what Mab had planned.

So? Do you think Lea or Mab were preparing Molly for something for Molly's good out of the simple charity of their frostbitten hearts?

Yes, Mab commented that she had a slightly different role for Molly in mind, but whatever specific title she wanted to slap on Molly, the point is Mab and Lea were deliberately grooming her for something, among which was the Winter Lady role, and I doubt the other possibilities were great choices, either.

[morriswalters]

Your in the position of the audience.  Molly's POV is the world hates me and I've got to hide.  Or to go all biblical.  The wicked flee though no one pursues, but the righteous are as bold as a lion.  Although Molly isn't wicked.(although after Cold Case Ramirez may doubt that)

[Mr. Death]

Your in the position of the audience.  Molly's POV is the world hates me and I've got to hide.  Or to go all biblical.  The wicked flee though no one pursues, but the righteous are as bold as a lion.  Although Molly isn't wicked.(although after Cold Case Ramirez may doubt that)

Yes, she has choices that she cannot and will not see because of her POV, guilt and mental issues, that is my point exactly, thank you! 

[morriswalters]

If Harry was dead  Molly was no longer an apprentice.  Your apprenticed to a person or maybe a guild, Lea is neither.

If Molly had no deal with the fey, than the fey couldn't harm her.  That would have been the Winter Knights job and he was busy being dead.  But if the fey had a channel through Harry than Lea could make Molly a sock puppet. Thus says Mab in Summer Knight.

And if anybody can come up with a coherent explanation about how souls actually work, would they share it with me?

[Mira]

   Molly has free will or had, she made her choice freely to train with Lea.   Now she will have to deal with the consequences of that choice.  Question, does Molly still have free will?  Presumably Mab no longer has it, but do the Ladies?

[forumghost]

   Molly has free will or had, she made her choice freely to train with Lea.   Now she will have to deal with the consequences of that choice.  Question, does Molly still have free will?  Presumably Mab no longer has it, but do the Ladies?

Obviously not, seeing as the Mantle Bodyjacked her on several occasions in Cold Case because she wanted to act in a way she wasn't allowed to.

[morriswalters]

It isn't an all or nothing proposition.  There are two types of events, one where the mantle rules and others where it doesn't care.

[forumghost]

I am aware. Not having FREE Will =/= not having Will at all. Mab for example can still make plans and decisions within her purview, but she lacks free will because there are times and places where she literally cannot take certain options.

The most obvious example is Killing. Mab can't kill someone unless they leave themselves open to her by involvement with the Courts. (Which is why she has a Knight to do it via loopholes)

[cptnspldng]

Well it's not like intimacy with another person is the only way to regrow the soul. Making art would probably do.

But I'm not sure there is a recharge option for somebody who's carrying one of the Queen mantles at all.

But making Art with a capital "A" implies the exercise of one's free will and as a being of the Nevernever, The Winter Lady is presumed to have surrendered the exercise of free will. Or is she also like Harry; a being both of mortal individuality and of predetermined Fae existance?

Discuss.

[peregrine]

Just because Art could replenish the soul (and I'm not sure that it can, without another soul there to interact with) doesn't mean it requires a soul to be done.  Hugging replenishes the soul, you want to try to argue that a fae can't hug someone?  Maybe not Mab, but Summer almost certainly can, with all the comfort and empathy of a regular human.

[Mr. Death]

Just because Art could replenish the soul (and I'm not sure that it can, without another soul there to interact with) doesn't mean it requires a soul to be done.  Hugging replenishes the soul, you want to try to argue that a fae can't hug someone?  Maybe not Mab, but Summer almost certainly can, with all the comfort and empathy of a regular human.

Now I kind of want to see Mab try to hug someone, for how hilariously awkward and stilted it probably is.

[morriswalters]

WOJ has talked about this.  He says Mab might still have some part of her soul, Molly almost certainly does.  But his use of the concept of soul and  free will are twisted.  Which makes it difficult to evaluate the behavior of the Queens and the Ladies.  Mab feels anger because Maeve is corrupted, which implies that she shares feelings about her children similar to Harry. As does Titania, shown by her anger when talking to Harry after the events of Summer Knight.  Titania tells Harry that Elder Gruff has convinced her that Harry should be forgiven.  They aren't immutable.  They feel grief and can make complex moral judgements.  This would imply to me that they have some free will left.

[Arjan]

I am aware. Not having FREE Will =/= not having Will at all. Mab for example can still make plans and decisions within her purview, but she lacks free will because there are times and places where she literally cannot take certain options.

The most obvious example is Killing. Mab can't kill someone unless they leave themselves open to her by involvement with the Courts. (Which is why she has a Knight to do it via loopholes)

If she wants to do something but she can not do something she still has the will to do it. As long as the mantle is seen as something different from herself it blocking her actions is outside interference not fundamentally different from someone else stopping you.

That can of course also be your own nature that is not aligned with the mantle yet.

If we see your nature as a set of instincts that generate emotions and is closely linked or identical to your power and life force the mantle is a more powerful set of instincts. It takes a lot of will to (want to) handle against those instincts and you need your soul to do so.

But the mantel stopping you to do or say certain things is actually not a sign you lost free will and it might be a sign that you still have it. When you have lost your free will completely it does not even occur to you to choose an option against your nature. You don’t see that option.

[Mira]

  My point is being human or not...  Humans have free will, knights are still human and have free will to make choices, the fae not so much..

[Avernite]

I guess there's also a once-removed option.

Perhaps Molly-the-Lady has no Free Will, but Molly-the-Soul still has the Choice to ditch the lady mantle (and from there get all her human will back). Her discussion about the necessity of the Lady would then be a significant in that it is her choosing the Lady and all its restraints.