Author Topic: Molly  (Read 25728 times)

Offline peregrine

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Re: Molly
« Reply #60 on: October 28, 2018, 10:37:27 PM »
Having things done to you does not violate any Free Will.  Otherwise Uriel would be able to intervene literally every time the Denarians killed anybody.  Likewise being forced to become a Queen doesn't violate your Free Will.  Any issues with connections to the fae courts/bargains/consent are fae issues, not free will issues.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Molly
« Reply #61 on: October 28, 2018, 11:08:15 PM »
A few points.

Harry meets Lea and Molly in Ghost Story. Read the rest of the conversation. It seems to me extremely likely that Lea did not give Molly that much of a choice. The white councils arrangements are probably extremely strict and archaic especially with a proven warlock and Lea would have had the powers Harry had over Molly and that was life and dead. Harry was not supposed to let a warlock run away, he was supposed to teach her to become not a warlock or to kill her. According to Lea his kindness had not been good for her and Lea acted accordingly.

It was not just about giving help. It was about all the obligations Harry had and some of those were not that nice. Remember Molly could not just have walked away from Harry either. Yes he offered in turncoat but I think he was breaking the rules. This is not the same as getting some swimming lessons from a guy who lives next door.
Sure, Molly could have walked away from Harry. She could have done so in Proven Guilty, too. It would probably have ended badly for her, Harry and a number of other people, but that is still a choice she had.

Lea might not have "given" Molly a choice, but that does not mean that Molly didn't have a choice. Lea is not inclined to tell Molly of alternatives -- if Molly can't figure that out on her own, that's Molly's problem, from Lea's perspective.

Just because other choices might have negative consequences (immediate or otherwise) or might not be laid out explicitly for you by someone who has negative incentive to tell you about other choices doesn't mean that the choice isn't there.

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Molly could not hide with her parents because that would make it too easy for Carlos to find her and that would blow any plausible deniability Carlos had. The same for Murphy actually.
Nah. All Carlos has to do is say, "Come on, guys, I spoke to Michael already and he said Molly wasn't there, I don't have to go back and bother that poor family again and again."

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You can teach people who do not want to learn if you are prepared to force it upon them. Lea is very good at that. She was exactly doing that in Ghost Story.
Lea's good at making you think there isn't a choice.

Just like Mab made Harry think he didn't have a choice ... until Uriel whispered in his ear.

Again: Mab and Lea both benefit greatly from Molly and Harry thinking they have them over a barrel without any choice in the matter. It's in Mab and Lea's interest to make it seem as if they don't have a choice, but Harry clearly does, so I don't see why Molly wouldn't either.

Think about it -- how many times did Lash try to make it seem like Harry had no choice but to accept power from her?

Someone with an agenda telling you that you don't have a choice doesn't mean it's true -- it means they benefit from you not choosing differently.

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And she could do so because of deals Molly had made with Harry, because of the authority Harry was given over her to save her life.
Molly made no deals with Fae. She didn't even swear on her power as far as we know.

How is Lea going to force her to learn? Is she going to mess with Molly's mind to make her more pliable? Well, that ruins any point in teaching her because you're scrambling her brain. Ditto with threatening to kill her.

In reality? Lea has no leverage to "force" Molly to do anything. Molly has choices -- there is always a choice -- but her guilt and Lea's manipulation put her in denial
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 11:21:17 PM by Mr. Death »
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Molly
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2018, 11:47:50 PM »
I notice that people only talk about fairness when bad things happen. 

To answer the question for Molly, first answer the question for Mab.  Mother Summer has told Harry the stakes.  You have read Harry's description of the battlefield at the gates.  And if you have read Cold Case you have read the cost to Winter to fight that  war.  Does Mab have free will?

Offline forumghost

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Re: Molly
« Reply #63 on: October 29, 2018, 06:12:17 AM »
No. Only humans so, Faeries and other Monsters do not, this is explicitly in the text.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Molly
« Reply #64 on: October 29, 2018, 06:27:49 AM »
No. Only humans so, Faeries and other Monsters do not, this is explicitly in the text.
That is said. But what is shown is more complicated than what is said, both for some humans as for some monsters.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Molly
« Reply #65 on: October 29, 2018, 02:00:20 PM »
That is said. But what is shown is more complicated than what is said, both for some humans as for some monsters.
What I think it comes down to is that some monsters are more human than others, and some humans are more monstrous than others.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Molly
« Reply #66 on: October 29, 2018, 04:43:51 PM »
What I think it comes down to is that some monsters are more human than others, and some humans are more monstrous than others.

So true...

Offline Arjan

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Re: Molly
« Reply #67 on: October 29, 2018, 10:15:21 PM »
Sure, Molly could have walked away from Harry. She could have done so in Proven Guilty, too. It would probably have ended badly for her, Harry and a number of other people, but that is still a choice she had.
You can always fall on your sword. Usually people only consider suicidal choices if nothing better is available and we have seen in Ghost story that it was the suicidal choice that actually caused a lot of problems.
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Lea might not have "given" Molly a choice, but that does not mean that Molly didn't have a choice. Lea is not inclined to tell Molly of alternatives -- if Molly can't figure that out on her own, that's Molly's problem, from Lea's perspective.
Lea could call the servitors to attack Molly to check her progress. Test her shields with knifes and just attack her. She could litterarily force her and she did, that is what was shown in Ghost Story. She did not just make it seem like, she did. And she got that power and obligation because of Harry.
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Just because other choices might have negative consequences (immediate or otherwise) or might not be laid out explicitly for you by someone who has negative incentive to tell you about other choices doesn't mean that the choice isn't there.
If an option has a clear negative outcome it tends to be disregarded. I am not talking about choices given by Lea, Molly is smart enough to look at her own options. I am talking about the options open to her that have any realistic chance to end well.


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Nah. All Carlos has to do is say, "Come on, guys, I spoke to Michael already and he said Molly wasn't there, I don't have to go back and bother that poor family again and again."
Lea's good at making you think there isn't a choice.
Until somebody else from the white council sees her there and informs people.
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Just like Mab made Harry think he didn't have a choice ... until Uriel whispered in his ear.
Just because Mab sometimes operates that way does not mean they always do.
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Again: Mab and Lea both benefit greatly from Molly and Harry thinking they have them over a barrel without any choice in the matter. It's in Mab and Lea's interest to make it seem as if they don't have a choice, but Harry clearly does, so I don't see why Molly wouldn't either.

Think about it -- how many times did Lash try to make it seem like Harry had no choice but to accept power from her?

Someone with an agenda telling you that you don't have a choice doesn't mean it's true
Again it is not about what Lea or Mab was telling to Molly. It is about the choices she actually had. There is a great difference.

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-- it means they benefit from you not choosing differently.
That is fine for them but this is about what choices would benefit Molly.
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Molly made no deals with Fae. She didn't even swear on her power as far as we know.

How is Lea going to force her to learn? Is she going to mess with Molly's mind to make her more pliable? Well, that ruins any point in teaching her because you're scrambling her brain. Ditto with threatening to kill her.
She will send lessons her way like she did with the servitors. She even combined it with a lesson for Harry. She is very good in that sort of thing.
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In reality? Lea has no leverage to "force" Molly to do anything. Molly has choices -- there is always a choice -- but her guilt and Lea's manipulation put her in denial
There are probably oaths involved in the apprenticeship and certainly heavy obligations. These were not oaths sworn to any Sidhe at all but Mab was bound to it.

That means Lea was bound to the full obligation Harry had to Molly as Mab would interpret it. This can not be just the obligation to give some free lessons.

Lea could not leave Molly alone and that means she could and would have followed her everywhere. Easy for Lea.

 
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Molly
« Reply #68 on: October 30, 2018, 12:47:08 AM »
You can always fall on your sword. Usually people only consider suicidal choices if nothing better is available and we have seen in Ghost story that it was the suicidal choice that actually caused a lot of problems.
Like I said -- it was a choice. Bad choices are still choices, and if Molly had decided to tell Harry to screw off, there isn't anything he could have done to make her take his tutelage.

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Lea could call the servitors to attack Molly to check her progress. Test her shields with knifes and just attack her. She could litterarily force her and she did, that is what was shown in Ghost Story. She did not just make it seem like, she did. And she got that power and obligation because of Harry.
And if Molly is staying at the BFS building, which has a threshold and a crapload of Einherjar to defend the place? Or if she's staying at her parents' house, and replace the Einherjar with angels? She could only "force" Molly to do anything because Molly eliminated her other choices herself.

The other thing? As Harry points out, among the obligations Lea took on from Harry are to protect and take care of Molly, which is why I think she'd hold back from actually killing her or bringing her real harm.

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If an option has a clear negative outcome it tends to be disregarded. I am not talking about choices given by Lea, Molly is smart enough to look at her own options. I am talking about the options open to her that have any realistic chance to end well.
You are talking about choices Lea gave Molly:

Quote from: You
It seems to me extremely likely that Lea did not give Molly that much of a choice.

And Molly is smart enough? When she's half brain-fried from malnutrition and she's on the Self-Flagellation Express? Molly post Changes is very much not a Molly who's in charge of all her critical thinking and objective, rational thought faculties.

She's not calmly laying out all her options and rationally deciding on the best course of action. She's crippled with guilt because she just murdered the man she loves and she probably feels like she deserves all the crap Lea puts on her.

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Until somebody else from the white council sees her there and informs people.
Remember the part about how the Fomor are only a big presence in Chicago because there isn't a White Council presence? Seriously, that's a whole thing, that things are so bad because there aren't wizards there, and the one that bothers showing up is Carlos.

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Just because Mab sometimes operates that way does not mean they always do.
Yeah, it's not like Mab sets the tone for her kingdom, or like Lea is explicitly taking Mab's role for the sake of acting in Mab's place the way Mab would or anything.

Mab isn't unique in that respect. That's what all faeries do, it's how they get you into those deals.

I mean, let's look at Lea herself. Her "deal" with Harry to give him power to beat HWWB... which amounted to a magic feather and getting Harry to swear to give himself over to her. Harry absolutely had a choice there, considering Lea's "help" didn't actually do anything tangible, but she certainly didn't put it that way, now did she?

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Again it is not about what Lea or Mab was telling to Molly. It is about the choices she actually had. There is a great difference.
Yeah. They weren't telling her she had any options, so in her guilt-riddled mind, she assumed there weren't any, or explicitly rejected the ones she was aware of.

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That is fine for them but this is about what choices would benefit Molly.
Yes, like opening up to her friends and allies and seeking shelter from people not grooming her for a job that will eventually eat away at her soul.

Choices that she has, but doesn't realize she has or has rejected because she's racked with guilt.

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She will send lessons her way like she did with the servitors. She even combined it with a lesson for Harry. She is very good in that sort of thing.
Again: I'd like to see her try it when Molly's at the BFS or her parents' house.

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There are probably oaths involved in the apprenticeship and certainly heavy obligations. These were not oaths sworn to any Sidhe at all but Mab was bound to it.

That means Lea was bound to the full obligation Harry had to Molly as Mab would interpret it. This can not be just the obligation to give some free lessons.

Lea could not leave Molly alone and that means she could and would have followed her everywhere. Easy for Lea.
Mab was bound to her vassal's obligations.

If Molly walks away and declares she's no longer Harry's apprentice, it's no longer Mab's obligation. Molly is an adult with free will, and she absolutely has other choices besides starving, sleeping in the snow and letting Lea throw knives at her.

She's just not in a place where she sees those choices, and Lea is not going to go out of her way to let her newest plaything think she actually has a choice in the matter.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Molly
« Reply #69 on: October 30, 2018, 01:52:12 AM »
No. Only humans so, Faeries and other Monsters do not, this is explicitly in the text.
I assume this is a response for me.  Here's the WOJ.
Quote from: Jim Butcher
Mab, for example, is Mab.  She /can’t/ show up and suddenly be merciful, generous, patient and kind.  It would never so much as occur to her to do so, because it isn’t a fundamental part of her nature, and she /can’t/ choose to change it.  She simply isn’t capable.  She doesn’t have free will in the same way that people do.  It’s related to the difference between having a soul and not having a soul, as well.  Without a soul, you aren’t free to choose how you will shape that soul.  You just stay what you are.
A couple of observations. 

1. Despite JB's quote Mab shows regret as well as compassion on Demonreach. 

2.  Mab had a soul since at one point she was mortal.  And Molly had a soul, at least until she got hung with the Mantle.    So the question wouldn't seem to be, did she make a choice to accept the Lady's Mantle? The question might more rightly be, did the Mantle remove her ability to make the choice to keep her soul? 

If the second Uriel would seem to have cause to set the situation right.  You can ask a similar question about Mab.(well at least I can, YMMV.)  So, is it possible that Molly can remain true to herself and fulfill the obligations to the Mantle at the same time? And if she can, will she keep her soul?

Offline forumghost

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Re: Molly
« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2018, 04:41:09 AM »
That's the soul, not free will. Does Mab have a soul? Maybe a shadow of one. Does she have Free Will? No. Same with Molly, except she hasn't been Sidhe for as long so her soul isn't shriveled like a prune yet.

Offline peregrine

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Re: Molly
« Reply #71 on: October 30, 2018, 05:06:06 AM »
Except that he's saying they're the same thing.  A soul is what allows you to go against your Nature.  Without it, you have no Free Will with which to override your Nature.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Molly
« Reply #72 on: October 30, 2018, 05:52:27 AM »
Like I said -- it was a choice. Bad choices are still choices, and if Molly had decided to tell Harry to screw off, there isn't anything he could have done to make her take his tutelage.
And if Molly is staying at the BFS building, which has a threshold and a crapload of Einherjar to defend the place? Or if she's staying at her parents' house, and replace the Einherjar with angels? She could only "force" Molly to do anything because Molly eliminated her other choices herself.

The other thing? As Harry points out, among the obligations Lea took on from Harry are to protect and take care of Molly, which is why I think she'd hold back from actually killing her or bringing her real harm.
You are talking about choices Lea gave Molly:

And Molly is smart enough? When she's half brain-fried from malnutrition and she's on the Self-Flagellation Express? Molly post Changes is very much not a Molly who's in charge of all her critical thinking and objective, rational thought faculties.

She's not calmly laying out all her options and rationally deciding on the best course of action. She's crippled with guilt because she just murdered the man she loves and she probably feels like she deserves all the crap Lea puts on her.
Remember the part about how the Fomor are only a big presence in Chicago because there isn't a White Council presence? Seriously, that's a whole thing, that things are so bad because there aren't wizards there, and the one that bothers showing up is Carlos.
Yeah, it's not like Mab sets the tone for her kingdom, or like Lea is explicitly taking Mab's role for the sake of acting in Mab's place the way Mab would or anything.

Mab isn't unique in that respect. That's what all faeries do, it's how they get you into those deals.

I mean, let's look at Lea herself. Her "deal" with Harry to give him power to beat HWWB... which amounted to a magic feather and getting Harry to swear to give himself over to her. Harry absolutely had a choice there, considering Lea's "help" didn't actually do anything tangible, but she certainly didn't put it that way, now did she?
Yeah. They weren't telling her she had any options, so in her guilt-riddled mind, she assumed there weren't any, or explicitly rejected the ones she was aware of.
Yes, like opening up to her friends and allies and seeking shelter from people not grooming her for a job that will eventually eat away at her soul.

Choices that she has, but doesn't realize she has or has rejected because she's racked with guilt.
Again: I'd like to see her try it when Molly's at the BFS or her parents' house.
Mab was bound to her vassal's obligations.

If Molly walks away and declares she's no longer Harry's apprentice, it's no longer Mab's obligation. Molly is an adult with free will, and she absolutely has other choices besides starving, sleeping in the snow and letting Lea throw knives at her.

She's just not in a place where she sees those choices, and Lea is not going to go out of her way to let her newest plaything think she actually has a choice in the matter.
The idea that Molly can cust end her apprenticeship is false, she would be just the apprentice who ran away and Harry would be obliged to run after her and kill her as a warlock or bring her back to him. Suicidal choices are free willed choices but I do not expect people to go for them.

Molly could have visited her friends more than she did probably but staying with them was not smart. The white council is not a unified block and some of them have different ways of looking and Carlos looking away would have become difficult if he got specific information.

The angelic guards would not and the bff could not defend against a group of wardens.

And when Molly started training with Lea Winter Lady was not the most likely outcome she could have expected. It was not what Mab had planned.

« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 06:51:49 AM by Arjan »
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Molly
« Reply #73 on: October 30, 2018, 11:18:23 AM »
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The angelic guards would not and the bff could not defend against a group of wardens.
Yep. I don't know that the bff would protect Molly, why would they?  Marcone pays them and he is a signatory of the accords, if the council asks he would have to give her up.  And Molly would be safe at home only in the sense that a prisoner on death row is safe from street crime.  Assuming she still shares in the angelic protection as an adult.  And the council needn't act directly to find her.  They can do what they did for Morgan.  Put a bounty on her.  If they want her they will keep coming until they get her.  You could almost call them the spooky FBI.  Who never stop looking.

I really don't know what the angelic guards are good for.  Except for sounding "cool". As close as I can figure it all they do is keep the fallen from acting directly. That fight at the house was pretty dramatic.  But Nick should have called in a drone strike.  To paraphrase a paraphrase, it was the only way to be sure. And the angels wouldn't have done anything.(You might guess I am rereading PG) :)

Offline Arjan

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Re: Molly
« Reply #74 on: October 30, 2018, 02:26:31 PM »
Yep. I don't know that the bff would protect Molly, why would they?  Marcone pays them and he is a signatory of the accords, if the council asks he would have to give her up.  And Molly would be safe at home only in the sense that a prisoner on death row is safe from street crime.  Assuming she still shares in the angelic protection as an adult.  And the council needn't act directly to find her.  They can do what they did for Morgan.  Put a bounty on her.  If they want her they will keep coming until they get her.  You could almost call them the spooky FBI.  Who never stop looking.

I really don't know what the angelic guards are good for.  Except for sounding "cool". As close as I can figure it all they do is keep the fallen from acting directly. That fight at the house was pretty dramatic.  But Nick should have called in a drone strike.  To paraphrase a paraphrase, it was the only way to be sure. And the angels wouldn't have done anything.(You might guess I am rereading PG) :)
Cool is very important. See them as Michael's honor guard.

Molly takes care of the real protection now  ;D
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