Molly

[Mr. Death]

Point of clarification: Molly's choice leading to her being the Winter Lady wasn't just "Be nearby when Maeve kicked."

She'd spent most of a year working with Lea, becoming more like Lea (i.e., more like a fae) the whole time -- slightly unhinged, enigmatic, avoiding her friends and family. Lea was grooming her, likely at Mab's direction, for the possibility.

Molly may not have known the consequences of her choice to continue associating with Lea, but she still made that choice.

Further, she made the choice to accept effective citizenship with the Svartalves -- i.e., Molly chose to become the member of a faerie nation.

She could have chosen differently -- she could have taken up her friends' offers for shelter and help instead.

Did she make an affirmative, informed decision to become the Winter Lady? No. But she made choices -- consistently over the course of several months -- that put her on, and kept her on, the path to becoming the Winter Lady.

[Carl]

Point of clarification: Molly's choice leading to her being the Winter Lady wasn't just "Be nearby when Maeve kicked."

She'd spent most of a year working with Lea, becoming more like Lea (i.e., more like a fae) the whole time -- slightly unhinged, enigmatic, avoiding her friends and family. Lea was grooming her, likely at Mab's direction, for the possibility.

Molly may not have known the consequences of her choice to continue associating with Lea, but she still made that choice.

Further, she made the choice to accept effective citizenship with the Svartalves -- i.e., Molly chose to become the member of a faerie nation.

She could have chosen differently -- she could have taken up her friends' offers for shelter and help instead.

Did she make an affirmative, informed decision to become the Winter Lady? No. But she made choices -- consistently over the course of several months -- that put her on, and kept her on, the path to becoming the Winter Lady.

Bearing in mind what mab had to say later there zero chance what Molly wanted would have had any effect on Lea. She was subbing for Mab in Subbing for Harry while he was incapacitated. Unless Molly figured that out and effectively quit out of being Harry's apprentice Lea was never going to leave Molly alone unless someone made her, and who exactly is there who could have done that?

Your also making a major assumption that Molly's reaction to people trying to help her was A) in any way a a free willed choice, B) would have worked out any better. Frankly without Lea running interference and her active hiding i doubt even Ramirez could have kept her from getting hunted down by the WC. And given human psychology, Lea's no doubt knowledge of it, Molly's emotional state and the general fae willingness to manipulate could have completely taken free will out of the equation. But since that Trauma was basically >90% a result of the manipulation of Harry it may be indirect enough of a way to take Uriel out of the can act picture. In fact that was my interpretation of the whole plot uriel pulled off in ghost story. Some aspect prevents him directly interfering, but somthing about the situation is off enough he can't act directly, (or it could just been the Fae Courts jobs means he's not allowed to interfere regardless of rules violations), so he has to work indirectly.

You could argue this was all a consequence of her decision to become Harry's apprentice, but you can't keep passing the buck back for forevermore, there comes a point at which it becomes inherently stupid because it requires someone to make a completely nonsensical decision that no normal mentally stable person is going to make because the whole point of being a normal mentally stable person is that our psychology is setup so that we cannot make such nonsensical decisions, our brain is inherently wired to disregard them. Hell even a not mentally stable person in most cases has a defined decision making limit set that constrains the decisions within their mental processes they're actually capable of making, (some mental disorders aside ofc).

That said as far as Mollys current will. Consider she can still go onto the Carpenter Property no issues. If she was bound by all the usual winter fae nastiness stuff there is no way in hell the guards would let her in, family or not.

[Arjan]

Bearing in mind what mab had to say later there zero chance what Molly wanted would have had any effect on Lea. She was subbing for Mab in Subbing for Harry while he was incapacitated. Unless Molly figured that out and effectively quit out of being Harry's apprentice Lea was never going to leave Molly alone unless someone made her, and who exactly is there who could have done that?

Your also making a major assumption that Molly's reaction to people trying to help her was A) in any way a a free willed choice, B) would have worked out any better. Frankly without Lea running interference and her active hiding i doubt even Ramirez could have kept her from getting hunted down by the WC. And given human psychology, Lea's no doubt knowledge of it, Molly's emotional state and the general fae willingness to manipulate could have completely taken free will out of the equation. But since that Trauma was basically >90% a result of the manipulation of Harry it may be indirect enough of a way to take Uriel out of the can act picture. In fact that was my interpretation of the whole plot uriel pulled off in ghost story. Some aspect prevents him directly interfering, but somthing about the situation is off enough he can't act directly, (or it could just been the Fae Courts jobs means he's not allowed to interfere regardless of rules violations), so he has to work indirectly.

You could argue this was all a consequence of her decision to become Harry's apprentice, but you can't keep passing the buck back for forevermore, there comes a point at which it becomes inherently stupid because it requires someone to make a completely nonsensical decision that no normal mentally stable person is going to make because the whole point of being a normal mentally stable person is that our psychology is setup so that we cannot make such nonsensical decisions, our brain is inherently wired to disregard them. Hell even a not mentally stable person in most cases has a defined decision making limit set that constrains the decisions within their mental processes they're actually capable of making, (some mental disorders aside ofc).

That said as far as Mollys current will. Consider she can still go onto the Carpenter Property no issues. If she was bound by all the usual winter fae nastiness stuff there is no way in hell the guards would let her in, family or not.

They will let Mab in. She is after all no danger. She will behave like a proper guest.

[Mr. Death]

Bearing in mind what mab had to say later there zero chance what Molly wanted would have had any effect on Lea. She was subbing for Mab in Subbing for Harry while he was incapacitated. Unless Molly figured that out and effectively quit out of being Harry's apprentice Lea was never going to leave Molly alone unless someone made her, and who exactly is there who could have done that?

Harry straight up told Molly to seek out Ebenezer. She could have done that. Instead, mainly out of guilt, she let herself live like a hobo and work under Lea instead.

Your also making a major assumption that Molly's reaction to people trying to help her was A) in any way a a free willed choice,

Multiple characters in Ghost Story offer Molly a place to stay and shower and get herself together. She outright refuses. Seems like a free-willed choice to me.

B) would have worked out any better.

It probably wouldn't have ended with her being Winter Lady.

Frankly without Lea running interference and her active hiding i doubt even Ramirez could have kept her from getting hunted down by the WC.

Ramirez was the sum total of the White Council's "efforts" to hunt down Molly, and he straight up admits to her in Cold Case that he was not really bothering. He wasn't hindering others from hunting her down -- he was the one tasked with hunting her down, and he went, "Oh, yeah, sure, top of my list wink wink."

And given human psychology, Lea's no doubt knowledge of it, Molly's emotional state and the general fae willingness to manipulate could have completely taken free will out of the equation. But since that Trauma was basically >90% a result of the manipulation of Harry it may be indirect enough of a way to take Uriel out of the can act picture. In fact that was my interpretation of the whole plot uriel pulled off in ghost story. Some aspect prevents him directly interfering, but somthing about the situation is off enough he can't act directly, (or it could just been the Fae Courts jobs means he's not allowed to interfere regardless of rules violations), so he has to work indirectly.

Whether or not someone took advantage of her emotional issues, she still had a choice.

She could have gone to Harry's friends and allies and taken shelter there, or she could've gone murderhobo and studied under Lea.

She chose the latter.

That said as far as Mollys current will. Consider she can still go onto the Carpenter Property no issues. If she was bound by all the usual winter fae nastiness stuff there is no way in hell the guards would let her in, family or not.

Remember what Cait Sith said.

As long as a Faerie doesn't mean or cause harm, they can cross through a threshold no problem.

[morriswalters]

I question if someone who appears to be suffering from severe PTSD can make good choices. Since Molly acted for "love" of Harry, Uriel couldn't intervene to help her. And one of the symptoms of PTSD is avoidance of friends.  The only way to help her was to help Harry.  And he could help Harry because a fallen had influenced Harry's choice. 

You can argue that Mab was responsible for Molly not crossing the line into Black Magic, since she had to act as Harry would have because of the nature of her responsibility.  As evil as Harry paints her, she keeps her word.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't this what Ghost Story was about?  About how our choices can both help and hurt those around us.

[peregrine]

Who says they were good choices?  Bad choices are choices still.

[Carl]

Harry straight up told Molly to seek out Ebenezer. She could have done that. Instead, mainly out of guilt, she let herself live like a hobo and work under Lea instead.
Multiple characters in Ghost Story offer Molly a place to stay and shower and get herself together. She outright refuses. Seems like a free-willed choice to me.
It probably wouldn't have ended with her being Winter Lady.
Ramirez was the sum total of the White Council's "efforts" to hunt down Molly, and he straight up admits to her in Cold Case that he was not really bothering. He wasn't hindering others from hunting her down -- he was the one tasked with hunting her down, and he went, "Oh, yeah, sure, top of my list wink wink."
Whether or not someone took advantage of her emotional issues, she still had a choice.

She could have gone to Harry's friends and allies and taken shelter there, or she could've gone murderhobo and studied under Lea.

She chose the latter.
Remember what Cait Sith said.

As long as a Faerie doesn't mean or cause harm, they can cross through a threshold no problem.

Multiple points.

1. Your making a key assumption here. That someone in a sufficiently fragile state is capable of making certain choices. One of the big things about many types of psychological disorder, (and the kind of state Molly was in in GS definitely counts), is that they're quite literally incapable of doing certain things or not doing others because they've got a hard psychological block in place as a result of their disorder. Given Mollys state at the end of GS the odds that she doesn't have some somwhere are virtually nil. For somthing to be the result of a free willed choice there has to be choices the individual is actually capable of making that produce different end results.

2. Ramirez in CC explicitly says he spoked operations by other wardens against her. Are you seriously telling me he managed to spoke every single op they mounted?

3. I'm talking about the angelic Guardians, not the threshold, there's no question that Grey would have meant no harm, but because of what he is they'd still have been obligated to stop him if he'd tried to come in.

[Arjan]

Harry straight up told Molly to seek out Ebenezer. She could have done that. Instead, mainly out of guilt, she let herself live like a hobo and work under Lea instead.

Harry was deceiving himself to make his choice to abandon Molly easier and Molly might even have picked up on it. The Merlin wanted her dead and Ebenezar who was barely able to save his grandson would not have taken more risk for a girl he did not know.

Multiple characters in Ghost Story offer Molly a place to stay and shower and get herself together. She outright refuses. Seems like a free-willed choice to me.

Every choice you make is free willed and somehow influences your fate even if it is based on wrong information in this case an overestimation of the white councils effort to look for her. It was also based on mental instability which became better after ghost story as we see in bomb shells. She did take showers at Butters.

It probably wouldn't have ended with her being Winter Lady.

If you prefer dead warlock above that, I do not.

If you prefer being dead to save your soul above the duty of defending reality your soul is not really saved either. It is like seeking salvation at the cost of everyone you know, it does not work. It is actually one of the lessons of ghost story and Molly’s burden is just biggen than Harry’s.

I am not sure it is bad either, just different. I do not see Uriel in tears over her and he was concerned in ghost story. Concerned enough to arrange ghost story partly for her which is a waste if she was already doomed.

Ramirez was the sum total of the White Council's "efforts" to hunt down Molly, and he straight up admits to her in Cold Case that he was not really bothering. He wasn't hindering others from hunting her down -- he was the one tasked with hunting her down, and he went, "Oh, yeah, sure, top of my list wink wink."
Whether or not someone took advantage of her emotional issues, she still had a choice.

Or you are just a victim of someone else’s choices. Free will does not even guarantee the possibility of good outcomes. It might guaranty the possibility of keeping your conscience clear but I am not sure of that either.

She could have gone to Harry's friends and allies and taken shelter there, or she could've gone murderhobo and studied under Lea.

Lea would have forced her to study under Lea. She was practically doing so when Harry met them in ghost story. She had the duty to do so and an apprentice running away from her duties is hardly a reason to stop teaching her? Lea does not get rid of her duties that easily.

She chose the latter.

She chose to cooperate. People make all sort of choices without knowing the consequences.

And it might have been the best choice at that moment. People make all kind of choices that influence their lives but other people do so as well. In thuis case Harry’s choice to kill himself and to involve Molly in it did far more damage than Uriel could fix with seven words and some non intervention.

Remember what Cait Sith said.

As long as a Faerie doesn't mean or cause harm, they can cross through a threshold no problem.

There are fairies living in the carpenters house, they are making shoes. Mab can walk in without any problem and if Charity is smart she just makes tea for her. The Sidhe seem to live outside the whole heaven-hell thing, they have other duties.

[Arjan]

Multiple points.

1. Your making a key assumption here. That someone in a sufficiently fragile state is capable of making certain choices. One of the big things about many types of psychological disorder, (and the kind of state Molly was in in GS definitely counts), is that they're quite literally incapable of doing certain things or not doing others because they've got a hard psychological block in place as a result of their disorder. Given Mollys state at the end of GS the odds that she doesn't have some somwhere are virtually nil. For somthing to be the result of a free willed choice there has to be choices the individual is actually capable of making that produce different end results.

That is your interpretation of free will. In my interpretation nobody has complete free will anyway and the only thing that matters is if somebody had enough of it to be held responsible for his choices and of these choices had enough influence to make her (partly) responsible for the outcome.

Angels tend to be quite harsh on both accounts.

2. Ramirez in CC explicitly says he spoked operations by other wardens against her. Are you seriously telling me he managed to spoke every single op they mounted?

He warned her via Murphy and told her to hide, not explicitly but clear enough. he knew what he was telling Murphy would have been told to Molly and he did not have to tell Murphy. Ramirez saw no way to save Molly inside the council. He used the power he had and could not have done anything more.

3. I'm talking about the angelic Guardians, not the threshold, there's no question that Grey would have meant no harm, but because of what he is they'd still have been obligated to stop him if he'd tried to come in.

Grey is the equivalent of a scion of a fallen angel. He is half fallen. And Uriel had to think about it and did not give Harry an answer, he was glad he did not have to answer that question. Grey is a completely different case because he is more involved in the conflict between heaven and hell.

Uriel had no problem with Molly in the house. Besides the angels are not there to interfere with free will. The Carpenters can probably invite everyone they want. There are big holes in that defense system.

[Avernite]

Point of clarification: Molly's choice leading to her being the Winter Lady wasn't just "Be nearby when Maeve kicked."

She'd spent most of a year working with Lea, becoming more like Lea (i.e., more like a fae) the whole time -- slightly unhinged, enigmatic, avoiding her friends and family. Lea was grooming her, likely at Mab's direction, for the possibility.

Molly may not have known the consequences of her choice to continue associating with Lea, but she still made that choice.

Further, she made the choice to accept effective citizenship with the Svartalves -- i.e., Molly chose to become the member of a faerie nation.

She could have chosen differently -- she could have taken up her friends' offers for shelter and help instead.

Did she make an affirmative, informed decision to become the Winter Lady? No. But she made choices -- consistently over the course of several months -- that put her on, and kept her on, the path to becoming the Winter Lady.

This would be a good argument, except the Harry/Uriel convo pretty much mentions Molly as having been harmed by the Fallen breaking the rules. And from that talk it seems this was not so much free choice as not-impossible-to-correct-later-by-free-choice.

[morriswalters]

Yeah that and the fact that the rule of Jim is make Harry suffer, and Molly is just one more layer of guilt.  To quote Jessica Rabbit,  "I'm not bad. I'm just drawn that way.".  Molly is written that way.

In the  story Mab wanted someone for something.  But Mab could only see what someone showed her.  Harry shined a flashlight on his apprentice and said, lookee here.  It couldn't end well.  It remains to be seen, if the Mantle, in context, is a plus or a minus. 

[Carl]

That is your interpretation of free will. In my interpretation nobody has complete free will anyway and the only thing that matters is if somebody had enough of it to be held responsible for his choices and of these choices had enough influence to make her (partly) responsible for the outcome.

Angels tend to be quite harsh on both accounts.He warned her via Murphy and told her to hide, not explicitly but clear enough. he knew what he was telling Murphy would have been told to Molly and he did not have to tell Murphy. Ramirez saw no way to save Molly inside the council. He used the power he had and could not have done anything more.Grey is the equivalent of a scion of a fallen angel. He is half fallen. And Uriel had to think about it and did not give Harry an answer, he was glad he did not have to answer that question. Grey is a completely different case because he is more involved in the conflict between heaven and hell.

Uriel had no problem with Molly in the house. Besides the angels are not there to interfere with free will. The Carpenters can probably invite everyone they want. There are big holes in that defense system.

1. Um no thats my facts on how the human mind actually works under some circumstances. Free Will as it exists in the Dresdenverse is pretty clearly laid out as well. But unless JB is basically saying that humans in the Dresdenverse aren't really human they're still constrained by the normal limits of human mental workings as to the range of choices they can make. And under some circumstance they really cannot make a range of choices, they're limited very narrowly.

2. I don't have a clue what your talking about there. You seem to be talking about Ghost Story, i'm talking about the later short story when Ramirez explicitly tell Molly he spoked several operations mounted by groups of other wardens.

3. Uriel specifically uses the phrase tried in relation to Gray coming in, given that he can cross thresholds no problem (and the threshold is at the house door in any case), the only way he cold not come in if he wanted is if he was stopped. His very use of try tells us Uriel would be obligated to stop him.

Also he's a scion of a skinwalker, not a fallen Angel. Skinwalkers have no relation to christian mythology and thus Lucifer. It also doesn't matter if that would have made the difference. In fact thats really the core of my argument. There's no question his heritage is from the bad side of the street despite the fact that he'd never actually do any harm under the circumstances in question. Yet Uriel was obligated to not let him in. Are you seriously telling me Winter Fae are better than him under those circumstances.

In effect for whatever reason riel is being forced to exclude him under the basis of what he is, not whether he's an actual danger. There's no reason the same thinking wouldn;t apply to Molly as the Winter Lady.

[Mr. Death]

Multiple points.

1. Your making a key assumption here. That someone in a sufficiently fragile state is capable of making certain choices. One of the big things about many types of psychological disorder, (and the kind of state Molly was in in GS definitely counts), is that they're quite literally incapable of doing certain things or not doing others because they've got a hard psychological block in place as a result of their disorder. Given Mollys state at the end of GS the odds that she doesn't have some somwhere are virtually nil. For somthing to be the result of a free willed choice there has to be choices the individual is actually capable of making that produce different end results.

I don't agree. She was given options. She made choices /before/ Ghost Story started. She decided to stay out in the cold with Lea instead of being with her family and friends. That is a choice she made.

Whether there were other factors influencing that choice doesn't matter much.

2. Ramirez in CC explicitly says he spoked operations by other wardens against her. Are you seriously telling me he managed to spoke every single op they mounted?

I'm saying that the Wardens honestly weren't trying very hard to find her. She wasn't Public Enemy Number One, Top Priority. She was "Another warlock out there, somewhere, Ramirez, go look for her when you have a chance."

3. I'm talking about the angelic Guardians, not the threshold, there's no question that Grey would have meant no harm, but because of what he is they'd still have been obligated to stop him if he'd tried to come in.

Grey is a very different type of being from the fae. His father is something that the books and the angels in particular, if I recall correctly, describe as the nearest thing to pure evil that there is.

And, as pointed out, Harry has a bunch of cobbler elves set up shop there.

Harry was deceiving himself to make his choice to abandon Molly easier and Molly might even have picked up on it. The Merlin wanted her dead and Ebenezar who was barely able to save his grandson would not have taken more risk for a girl he did not know.

I think you're really underselling Ebenezer here. She's not just some random girl he doesn't know, he's his grandson's apprentice, and I find it seriously hard to believe that Ebenezer would toss aside his memory so quickly as to turn her out or turn her in.

If you prefer dead warlock above that, I do not.

Those are not the only two outcomes here. Heck, it's an unlikely outcome, considering the Warden tasked with tracking her down isn't trying too hard, and is, in fact, deliberately stalling any other efforts to do so.

If you prefer being dead to save your soul above the duty of defending reality your soul is not really saved either. It is like seeking salvation at the cost of everyone you know, it does not work. It is actually one of the lessons of ghost story and Molly’s burden is just biggen than Harry’s.

Again, that is not the only other possible outcome, and I daresay if Molly had made different choices, ones that would not have made her eligible for Lady-hood, Mab would have figured something else out.

I am not sure it is bad either, just different. I do not see Uriel in tears over her and he was concerned in ghost story. Concerned enough to arrange ghost story partly for her which is a waste if she was already doomed.

That's a point, but people are talking about how unfair it is that she was made Lady against her will without making that choice. I'm not arguing whether or not her being a Lady is good or bad for her or for reality -- just that it's a result of choices she made that put her in that position, in that capacity.

Or you are just a victim of someone else’s choices. Free will does not even guarantee the possibility of good outcomes. It might guaranty the possibility of keeping your conscience clear but I am not sure of that either.

Yeah, free will doesn't happen in a vacuum.

Lea would have forced her to study under Lea. She was practically doing so when Harry met them in ghost story. She had the duty to do so and an apprentice running away from her duties is hardly a reason to stop teaching her? Lea does not get rid of her duties that easily.

Lea is obligated to step in for Harry, but Molly is not obligated to accept that help, any more than she was obligated to accept Harry's help.

Lea is the one bound by Faerie Law, not Molly. You can't give help to someone who does not want it, and what, pray tell, was Lea going to do if Molly decided to move back in with her parents?

She chose to cooperate. People make all sort of choices without knowing the consequences.

And it might have been the best choice at that moment. People make all kind of choices that influence their lives but other people do so as well. In thuis case Harry’s choice to kill himself and to involve Molly in it did far more damage than Uriel could fix with seven words and some non intervention.

Fair points.

[Arjan]

A few points.

“Why?” Molly asked, her voice barely more than a whisper. “Why are you doing this to me?”

Harry meets Lea and Molly in Ghost Story. Read the rest of the conversation. It seems to me extremely likely that Lea did not give Molly that much of a choice. The white councils arrangements are probably extremely strict and archaic especially with a proven warlock and Lea would have had the powers Harry had over Molly and that was life and dead. Harry was not supposed to let a warlock run away, he was supposed to teach her to become not a warlock or to kill her. According to Lea his kindness had not been good for her and Lea acted accordingly.

It was not just about giving help. It was about all the obligations Harry had and some of those were not that nice. Remember Molly could not just have walked away from Harry either. Yes he offered in turncoat but I think he was breaking the rules. This is not the same as getting some swimming lessons from a guy who lives next door.

About skinwalkers in turncoat:

“He’s the real deal, all right,” Bob replied, his quiet voice growing more serious. “According to some of the stories of the Navajo, the naagloshii were originally messengers for the Holy People, when they were first teaching humans the Blessing Way.”
“Messengers?” I said. “Like angels?”
“Or like those guys on bikes in New York, maybe?” Bob said. “Not all couriers are created identical, Mr. Lowest-Common-Denominator. Anyway, the original messengers, the naagloshii, were supposed to go with the Holy People when they departed the mortal world. But some of them didn’t. They stayed here, and their selfishness corrupted the power the Holy People gave them. Voila, Shagnasty.”

Uriel recognised Mouse as a similar being. Angels and Fallen are not restricted to the abrahamic religions, the naagloshii are a sort of fallen angel. Evil. They are totally different from a Sidhe who is more outside this struggle and has his own duties.

Murphy in Ghost Story:

“She says they were as much psychic as physical. And that hit to her leg was pretty bad. I don’t understand how your disappearance makes her a criminal to the White Council, but apparently it has. Ramirez has told us that the Wardens are looking to pass sentence on her—but he didn’t seem to be working his ass off to find her, either. I know what it looks like when a cop is slacking.”

Ramirez knew Murphy would pass this information. It ruined every chance the white council had to get her by surprise. He told Murphy on purpose to warn Molly.

Lea is obligated to step in for Harry, but Molly is not obligated to accept that help, any more than she was obligated to accept Harry's help.
Lea is the one bound by Faerie Law, not Molly. You can't give help to someone who does not want it,
and what, pray tell, was Lea going to do if Molly decided to move back in with her parents?

Molly could not hide with her parents because that would make it too easy for Carlos to find her and that would blow any plausible deniability Carlos had. The same for Murphy actually.

You can teach people who do not want to learn if you are prepared to force it upon them. Lea is very good at that. She was exactly doing that in Ghost Story.

And she could do so because of deals Molly had made with Harry, because of the authority Harry was given over her to save her life.

[Avernite]

That's a point, but people are talking about how unfair it is that she was made Lady against her will without making that choice. I'm not arguing whether or not her being a Lady is good or bad for her or for reality -- just that it's a result of choices she made that put her in that position, in that capacity.

Any choices she made were made at the behest of one of the literal Fallen Angels breaking the rules. Uriel did what he could through Harry, but he could not correct everything. Free Will, it certainly was not.