Who are the members of the Grey Council?

[Mira]

I disagree with the Merlin being on the Grey Council because I think he has such devout faith in the White Council that to even suggest such a thing would be blasphemy, and anyone involved get their head's shopped off.

Also Jim has said that there are those on the White Council who are afraid of Harry, and even considered having him killed... But being a Knight of Mab makes them afraid to do so.  Merlin I believe is one of those people that see's Harry as a violator of the Laws of magic, defiant towards the Council, arrogant, unpredictable, violent, immature, and powerful enough to do real damage.

I don't think that he hates Harry, but I think he see's the potential for him to be another kemmler, and having witnessed the destruction first hand is concerned about him.  Harry being part of some sort of shadow council would only validate his fears.

The Merlin sees Harry as a useful tool,  kind of a "mission impossible"  type person...  More so than even Eb, who is more of a "James Bond."  I mean Eb has license to kill,  but because of his rep, the Merlin can disavow Harry if he sends him off to do whatever for him and it goes wrong..

[groinkick]

The Merlin sees Harry as a useful tool,  kind of a "mission impossible"  type person...  More so than even Eb, who is more of a "James Bond."  I mean Eb has license to kill,  but because of his rep, the Merlin can disavow Harry if he sends him off to do whatever for him and it goes wrong..

Maybe?  Up to this point I don't think he's had Harry do anything though.

[peregrine]

The theory is that by flat out telling Harry not to do something, what he really wanted was for Harry to do that exact opposite thing.

And possibly that when he was talking about having a plan to kill the Red Court root and branch, what that plan was "Just assume you'll eradicate them somehow, entirely on your own."  Though that second part is a less common theory.

[groinkick]

The theory is that by flat out telling Harry not to do something, what he really wanted was for Harry to do that exact opposite thing.

And possibly that when he was talking about having a plan to kill the Red Court root and branch, what that plan was "Just assume you'll eradicate them somehow, entirely on your own."  Though that second part is a less common theory.

Well....  If Merlin and the others did plan to destroy the Red Court as described...  It means that they were able to manipulate the Red Court into setting up the Blood line curse, made sure it was Harry's daughter taken, and pointed Harry in the direction.

This does make some sense when I think about it but it means the Council set Harry up by making sure the Reds got his daughter, and had the idea of a Bloodline curse, and the Council is complicit in the sacrificial deaths of thousands.  If Harry finds out there's going to be some hell to pay.  It also means that those responsible are real chess masters...  Sounds more like Odin, or Mab or possibly the Mothers.  I could see someone like Merlin having access to them considering his power, and position. 

[Avernite]

Well....  If Merlin and the others did plan to destroy the Red Court as described...  It means that they were able to manipulate the Red Court into setting up the Blood line curse, made sure it was Harry's daughter taken, and pointed Harry in the direction.

This does make some sense when I think about it but it means the Council set Harry up by making sure the Reds got his daughter, and had the idea of a Bloodline curse, and the Council is complicit in the sacrificial deaths of thousands.  If Harry finds out there's going to be some hell to pay.  It also means that those responsible are real chess masters...  Sounds more like Odin, or Mab or possibly the Mothers.  I could see someone like Merlin having access to them considering his power, and position.

It is a bit of a conundrum; the known White Council could never have won the war with the Reds in the way the Merlin hinted, and the known White Council could not arrange things so that Harry had his opportunity. So either the Merlin was lying through his teeth (he ain't Fae, so who knows), or there are unknown depths to his power and influence.

Though IF he was behind the plotting, I think it far more likely he traded in favours. 'Dear Odin, dear Mab, remember you owe me for XYZ? If you can set it up so there's a weapon primed to wipe out the Red Court I will consider that debt forgiven'. But then in more fluttery diplomatic language. Never mind that in that case, the Merlin obviously didn't want Harry pulling it off.

[morriswalters]

Or Cowl is Langtry and the purpose of the Bloodline curse was to kill Ebeneezer and Harry.  Leaving him free to use the Dark Hallow to become a god at which point, the Reds would have been toast and the White Council would become neutered.  The Black Council then becomes the new White Council.  With Langtry as God King. Improbable but fun to think about. I assume JB will reveal the plot eventually.

[Snark Knight]

It is a bit of a conundrum; the known White Council could never have won the war with the Reds in the way the Merlin hinted, and the known White Council could not arrange things so that Harry had his opportunity.

Langtry might have been planning to use some other supernatural WMD, but Ariana beat him to the punch with the bioweapon than disabled most of the Edinburgh complex during Changes.

Maybe?  Up to this point I don't think he's had Harry do anything though.

Well, there was the "try to clear Morgan, but you're on your own if you can't bring in hard evidence" bit. But Harry sort of put himself forward for that anyway.

Or Cowl is Langtry and the purpose of the Bloodline curse was to kill Ebeneezer and Harry.  Leaving him free to use the Dark Hallow to become a god at which point, the Reds would have been toast and the White Council would become neutered.  The Black Council then becomes the new White Council.  With Langtry as God King. Improbable but fun to think about. I assume JB will reveal the plot eventually.

The scene where Cowl and Harry fought outside Bock's over the Erlking book is pretty important to evaluating the Cowl-as-Langtry theory. Specifically, where Cowl says he was curious to see how Harry actually stacked up in a fight, and what the Wardens were so nervous about. It could work - Langtry would certainly have access to the Warden files on Harry, but hasn't seen him directly do much.

[groinkick]

The scene where Cowl and Harry fought outside Bock's over the Erlking book is pretty important to evaluating the Cowl-as-Langtry theory. Specifically, where Cowl says he was curious to see how Harry actually stacked up in a fight, and what the Wardens were so nervous about. It could work - Langtry would certainly have access to the Warden files on Harry, but hasn't seen him directly do much.

Yeah but Jim said that anyone on the Council would mop the floor with Harry.  Langtry also appears to be very good at mind magic...  I think he'd have assaulted Harry's mind to test him rather using kinetic force.

[Yuillegan]

Yeah but Jim said that anyone on the Council would mop the floor with Harry.  Langtry also appears to be very good at mind magic...  I think he'd have assaulted Harry's mind to test him rather using kinetic force.

I specifically believe he was referring to Senior Council at that time. Of the thousand plus wizard in sheer might, even before he became the Winter Knight, Harry always saw himself in the top 30-40 strongest. Which is not to say most capable fighters or most powerful wizards. Even though I suspect he has had a pretty meteoric rise in combat ability over the series. Jim has even gone back and said not every wizard, not even most wizards are suited to combat. That was why there was only 200 wardens in a thousand plus group. And of the senior council only Simon (dead), Eb (who replaced him, and is also the Blackstaff and was captain of the wardens), Langtry (the Merlin), Rashid (the Gatekeeper), Listens-to-Wind and Cristos are fighters and skilled in Evocation. Martha Liberty, Aleron Lafortier (dead), Ancient Mai are all considered to have talents that do not lend themselves to direct combat. Though I acknowledge Liberty is an unknown quantity here, all we really know is she is good at veils.

[groinkick]

I specifically believe he was referring to Senior Council at that time.

Yeah that's what I meant.  Harry would trash most wizards.  It's just the few at the very top that would crush him.  Harry is a top level player but what he lacks is experience.  They have centuries on him in that department.  Harry is like in his 40's?  I think that if he were say 90 - 100 he'd be able to probably take any of them.

[Con]

WOJ is that Harry is to Morgan what Morgan is to Ebenezar. So Ebenezar is three times more powerful and experience then Harry.

[img]
Harry does not have Morgan's experience or expertise in a fight.  It doesn't mean that Harry isn't also an effective and dangerous opponent, but he has a completely different approach--and he generally has a lot more to learn, still, before he is as formidable as someone like Morgan.

Granted, Ebenezar makes /Morgan/ look like Harry.  But hey.   There's always someone bigger or better than you, right?[/quote]

[peregrine]

Keep in mind that Harry is one of the most powerful wizards.

But Rashid is the most dangerous wizard on the Senior Council, but not the most powerful.  Harry may have more raw power than them, but not necessarily be able to take them out.  Like Groinkick says, experience and skill still count for a lot.  So while he may have more juice than Ancient Mai, or LtW, or whatever, that doesn't mean he can beat them.

[phi1601]

An interesting one is Montjoy. He was mentioned in Summer Knight as one of the candidates for Senior Council nominations but was unavailable because he was "on a research trip in the Yucatán," according to Martha Liberty.

The reason I find this interesting is because:
1. He's strong (or old) enough to be considered for a senior council position. So he potentially has the power level for Grey Council.
2. Martha Liberty was the one who knew where he was. She's an ally of Eb so I'd say that puts Montjoy in the Eb/Martha/Indunjoe faction.
3. He was in the Yucatan. Know what else is in Yucatan? Chichen Itza. Sounds like he was doing some research into the red court.

If he is in the Grey council, I don't know that being named in passing a single time in the series is enough to be considered by Jim in the list of 6 that we "already know".

So he might be one of 4 we haven't met instead.

[groinkick]

It is a bit of a conundrum; the known White Council could never have won the war with the Reds in the way the Merlin hinted

I wouldn't be so sure.  In a video someone said words to that effect and Jim said "The White Council has never lost, which is why they are still around" or something like that.

I think the Council could do what is described.  They could do a curse just like the Reds were planning.  However instead of powering it via human sacrifice my guess is the Council would subdue some powerful thing, Dragon, Deity, ect to power the curse.  The reason they didn't do it right away is because there is obviously going to be some sort of backlash that will happen from doing such a thing.

[Mira]

The theory is that by flat out telling Harry not to do something, what he really wanted was for Harry to do that exact opposite thing.

And possibly that when he was talking about having a plan to kill the Red Court root and branch, what that plan was "Just assume you'll eradicate them somehow, entirely on your own."  Though that second part is a less common theory.

Exactly and if he failed,  the Merlin would say he never suggested anything like that to Harry, least a new war between the Red Court and the White Council start all over again... Very "Mission Impossible."