White Court WAG

[kbrizzle]

While rereading Turn Coat, I became very interested in the scene where Lara devours Madeline on Demonreach.

I’d always wondered how Lord Raith got to be so powerful that he could kill with a single kiss. His immunity to magic seems to be provided by his “sponsor”, however it seems like he was a very formidable vampire in his hey day even without the additional protections.

What if the way he got to be so powerful is by devouring the hunger demons of other White Court vampires? We know he feeds on all his female children that are also vampires.

 It’s probably not well known in the White Court otherwise everyone would be doing it, but it definitely seems like Lara has gotten more formidable/ powerful since the events of Turn Coat although we haven’t seen her in action yet.

[groinkick]

Could be.  May also have to do with just how much humanity they have, or the lack there of.  Lord Raith (and now Lara) may be becoming more demon than human. 

Thomas was struggling to stop his demon from pulling him through a mirror during the soulgaze.  They were two separate beings fighting for dominance.  Lord Raith there is no such struggle.  He is in complete union with his demon and that combined with how long he has been feeding has probably enhanced it's power.  The demon itself may take long periods of time (years, decades, centuries) to grow stronger.

[vultur]

I kind of doubt that he is feeding on other White Court demons, but who knows.

IMO Lord Raith is more powerful because he's enormously older than the others (thousands, vs 100-some for Lara and 40ish for Thomas) -- either because Hunger demons inherently get stronger with age/feeding as groinkick suggests, or because of a 'power split up among descendants' situation such as Odin implies was going on with the Red Court and Lord Raith is from a much earlier generation and thus got a bigger 'slice of the pie'.

Or maybe just vastly more practice allowing him to use his power more efficiently/effectively... I'm not sure the power gap between Lord Raith and Lara or well-fed Thomas is that huge. Thomas has physically matched Black Court vampires (non-masters, admittedly) even when he wasn't feeding much; Lara's Hunger was almost overwhelming Harry with just the edge of its effect, at a significant distance, when she was focusing on Lord Raith at the end of BR. Lara doesn't go all-out "on screen" that often (and the skinwalker in TC probably wouldn't have been vulnerable to even an incredibly powerful Hunger).

Thomas talks about Lord Raith being awe-inspiringly powerful, but he systematically intimidated his descendants; it's entirely plausible to me that in BR Thomas and even Lara thought the power-gap was much larger than it actually was.

[Snark Knight]

Could be.  May also have to do with just how much humanity they have, or the lack there of.  Lord Raith (and now Lara) may be becoming more demon than human. 

I hope not. She makes a much more interesting antagonist as a mostly-person who chooses to be a villain because it's the expedient means to achieve her ends than she could as just a puppet to her demon. A lot of what she's doing makes the most sense interpreted through a lens that she's driven to gather enough power so nobody can ever hurt her again like her father's sexual abuse did. Where she tips from survivor into villain is channeling that into "no matter who I have to hurt or kill to get there", but that's still a rationalization that can come from a human mind.

I think if the demon was in the driver's seat most of the time, her rise within the White Court would have been mostly founded on dominating competing whamps the way her father did. Her demon is probably strong enough to take almost anybody else' in that sort of fight.

[Mira]

    I think there are more factors than just the strength of the demon involved.  I think any of the White Court is capable of cannibalizing each other on a one on one fight.  I think Lord Raith understood this, that is why he killed off his male children in fear that they might challenge him someday.  His daughters he dominated sexually, feeding upon them from the moment they reached puberty with fully engaged demons. 

[Arjan]

Lara is definitively eating from her father right now, it is the best way to make sure of his weakness.

[Mira]

Lara is definitively eating from her father right now, it is the best way to make sure of his weakness.

She was able to do it once she found out about his physical weakness as a result of not getting nourishment from his demon due to Margaret's death.  Before she found out though she didn't even try.

[Arjan]

She was able to do it once she found out about his physical weakness as a result of not getting nourishment from his demon due to Margaret's death.  Before she found out though she didn't even try.

Sure but at the end of blood rites she started feeding from him.

[kbrizzle]

Do you think eating Madeline, demon & all, made Lara more powerful? It seems to me like she significantly upped her game after TC. I believe Ebenzer is going to pay somehow for treating her like a rag doll on the island. At the end of Changes, she’s able to divert resources of the US Navy into going to Chichen Itza. By Ghost Story, she & Marcone are the 2 most powerful people in Chicago.

My WAG was that Lord Raith seems to be more powerful than was normal even for powerful White Court vamps, which is how he got to be White King. I do not believe he an elder of the Court in a manner such as the LOoNs. My theory was that he got to become that powerful by eating the demons of other Whamps.

[Mira]

Do you think eating Madeline, demon & all, made Lara more powerful? It seems to me like she significantly upped her game after TC. I believe Ebenzer is going to pay somehow for treating her like a rag doll on the island. At the end of Changes, she’s able to divert resources of the US Navy into going to Chichen Itza. By Ghost Story, she & Marcone are the 2 most powerful people in Chicago.

I don't as far as the demon goes, but killing Madeline would go a long way of making her more powerful in the minds of the rest of the clan. 

[morriswalters]

By Ghost Story, she & Marcone are the 2 most powerful people in Chicago.

Well, yeah.  To start with she was smarter than her daddy, which is why she is where she is and why he is currently a sock puppet.  To continue, Harry took himself off the board.  Short sighted on his part if I do say so.  Makes you want to scream, WHAT WAS HE THINKING?

Whamps, I love it.

[Mira]

Well, yeah.  To start with she was smarter than her daddy, which is why she is where she is and why he is currently a sock puppet.  To continue, Harry took himself off the board.  Short sighted on his part if I do say so.  Makes you want to scream, WHAT WAS HE THINKING?

Whamps, I love it.

  But she would still be his sock puppet if Harry hadn't told her about what his mother's death curse did to her daddy..

[morriswalters]

Yep.  But daddy thought he couldn't lose.  He chose poorly.  She took a risk and won big.  A very Darwinian form of intelligence.  It's a shame she's a vampire.

[Snark Knight]

I don't as far as the demon goes, but killing Madeline would go a long way of making her more powerful in the minds of the rest of the clan.

Making a truly disturbing example of a traitor is a power move in a group that's really, really old-school, yes.

[vultur]

Do you think eating Madeline, demon & all, made Lara more powerful? It seems to me like she significantly upped her game after TC.

I think that's a combination of Lara learning from Lord Raith's library, and the more fluid supernatural political situation after the fall of the Red Court, rather than an increase in Lara's personal supernatural power.

https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,21772.msg2238125.html#msg2238125

Will we find out about Lord Raith's library?
There's kind of a long game going on in the Dresden Files, and Lord Raith has been involved in it in the last couple of cycle's it's gone on.  He's been trying to educate himself about it, and he meant to be a player in it this time it came around, but getting involved with Margret kind of screwed him over.
Lara's got his library now and knows everything he knows, which explains a lot of her actions.

My WAG was that Lord Raith seems to be more powerful than was normal even for powerful White Court vamps, which is how he got to be White King. I do not believe he an elder of the Court in a manner such as the LOoNs.

Well, I don't know whether his age gives him extra supernatural power - we don't know enough about the White Court's origin or the nature of Hunger demons.

But I think there's a decent argument to be made that Lord Raith is "an elder of the Court" in the sense of being one of the oldest Whampires alive. Given that Lord Raith is by WoJ "a couple thousand years old" and the White Court's internal language is Etruscan (which was around from the 1st millennium BC up to the first century or so AD), he's probably been around for at least 2/3 of the Court's existence, and possibly since the very beginning.

I don't think he could be the very first Whampire himself, or Malvora and Skavis wouldn't be as politically powerful as they are before the events of WN. But I actually wouldn't be surprised if he's the first Raith / second-generation White Court (with the major houses being founded by the children of the first Whampire).