Will the Big Moment Come in Peace Talks?

[Carl]

But that is nothing special, that is just Harry being Harry. Peace talks will show that Harry is still a member with all the rights and obligations that brings.

Um what. That was exactly my point. Harry being Harry he's been calling the council out for ages and will undoubtedly continue to do so for ages more. There's nothing special about Harry doing that and there never will be. Yes maybe someday circumstances will conspire to give Harry the whip hand and change how the council works, but Harry's not going to treat them any different just because he's got the whip hand, thats not how Harry works. He'll stand there and spit in the eye of gods, faires queens, vampire,s angles, (fallen or otherwise), and plain old vanilla mortals no matter what his relative position against them. Thats how Harry rolls.

Molly is not human anymore, according to the councils definition of human. That will place her outside the councils jurisdiction.

More to the point so long as it doesn't interfere with the purpose of her court Mab mostly isn't going to give a monkey's about what anyone does to any of her people. The Winter Knight Mantle changes hands reguarly, getting a new knight would put a hiccup in Mab's work, but an easily smoothed one. Having to replace the junior queen would be a major disruption, and that makes it a direct attack on the courts purpose. Mab is really going to care about that, zand she's winter fae, her response to any kind of threat to her purpose is going to be to kill it as fast and hard as possibble.

[Arjan]

That all makes sense and seems logical, but I just don’t see the white council arresting and executing Molly, for example, if they meet up in Peace Talks. I’d think they’d be equally stand-offish regarding arresting and executing Dresden for something he does as winter knight while conducting business for Mab. I think, for the moment, he and Molly are a bit out of their grasp. Moreso for Molly. They just need to watch out if the day comes and they are no longer part of the winter court because, then, I think, the white council would come to make them pay the bill.

The salary is important. When you get a salary from someone you acquire obligations with it. Harry is a warden as long as they pay his salary and he accepts it.

[Snark Knight]

I doubt even Harry's enemies on the Council would want to hash out their problems with him during PT. The Council would hate showing disunity or weakness in front of the assembled who's-who of the Accords powers even more than they hate Harry. With all the other powers around, it's a better opportunity for trying to manipulate Harry into a duel with someone who overpowers him. But taking him out in-house is better done later and not in front of so many witnesses.

[Mira]

I doubt even Harry's enemies on the Council would want to hash out their problems with him during PT. The Council would hate showing disunity or weakness in front of the assembled who's-who of the Accords powers even more than they hate Harry. With all the other powers around, it's a better opportunity for trying to manipulate Harry into a duel with someone who overpowers him. But taking him out in-house is better done later and not in front of so many witnesses.

   From what Rashid implied it will be more important than  a mere hashing out of differences, or who hates or doesn't hate Harry..   He implied that it will be more of a life or death situation with repercussions that go way beyond Harry's life or the future of the Council.

[morriswalters]

I had an idle thought.  Maybe rather than confronting the Senior Council possibly he ends a White Council civil war.

[Ananda]

The salary is important. When you get a salary from someone you acquire obligations with it. Harry is a warden as long as they pay his salary and he accepts it.

Was that from his talk with Rashid? It seems familiar. I’d forgotten about that; good point. Still, I don’t think they will interfere with him while he’s doing Mab’s business. Later, when he’s either not needed or out from the job, I guess they will want him to pay the whatever bill he’s accrued.

Speaking of a bill, he is an accessory to murdering a mortal when they broke into the vault in skin games. He had been using magics there, so think that gets held against him? Marcone took payment, but that’s not how that magic laws work (can’t buy justice).

[peregrine]

Harry didn't murder a mortal with magic, Laws don't care.  There is no accessory issues as far as the White Council is concerned.

[Carl]

Harry didn't murder a mortal with magic, Laws don't care.  There is no accessory issues as far as the White Council is concerned.

Interesting thought on this, where do all the members of the fellowship who died of old age after Harry took out the red court sit. The council obviously isn't concerned but JB's been clear in some WoJ's that what the council's laws are and what the universe level laws are on black magic don't allways line up.

[Ananda]

Harry didn't murder a mortal with magic, Laws don't care.  There is no accessory issues as far as the White Council is concerned.

That’s one opinion. Most human legal systems would find him culpable. It could go either way, I think. I guess it comes down to if the Merlin likes him or not for if he presses it.

Speaking of more of Dresden’s bill, how is it he never was charged for all the young people he burned to death at Bianca’s par-tay? I can’t remember if that was ever explained in the books. I remember him fearing he’d pay for it, but I don’t remember anything ever happening. I remember a question mark on if they were already dead, but it seems unlikely all were. Unless I’m forgetting something, the books seem to have dropped it.

[peregrine]

That’s one opinion. Most human legal systems would find him culpable. It could go either way, I think. I guess it comes down to if the Merlin likes him or not for if he presses it.

Speaking of more of Dresden’s bill, how is it he never was charged for all the young people he burned to death at Bianca’s par-tay? I can’t remember if that was ever explained in the books. I remember him fearing he’d pay for it, but I don’t remember anything ever happening. I remember a question mark on if they were already dead, but it seems unlikely all were. Unless I’m forgetting something, the books seem to have dropped it.

The Laws are not most human legal systems.  They are explicitly about using* magic.  Just being there when magic is happening is not an issue.  Murdering someone is not an issue. 

As for the deaths at Biancas, I imagine that it's chalked up to them not knowing who, if anyone, actually was killed by the fire vs already dead.  Though given the grudge some folks held against him, you'd think they'd try a bit harder to look into it.

*And some bits about seeking information, which may or may not require/cover magic only, vs reading it in a book.

[Ananda]

Interesting thought on this, where do all the members of the fellowship who died of old age after Harry took out the red court sit. The council obviously isn't concerned but JB's been clear in some WoJ's that what the council's laws are and what the universe level laws are on black magic don't allways line up.

And how about the Grey Council members who were mortal wizards who killed the gunmen and so with magic at that fight?

[peregrine]

And how about the Grey Council members who were mortal wizards who killed the gunmen and so with magic at that fight?

The only one we know of is Eb who has a specific exemption from the Laws.

[Ananda]

The salary is important. When you get a salary from someone you acquire obligations with it. Harry is a warden as long as they pay his salary and he accepts it.

Part 2 response because F this heatwave in Europe! I can’t sleep!

I was thinking about your reply in concert with Rashid’s conversation with Dresden. Upon reading that bit in the book, I had just assumed Rashid was being kind. But, now, with what you said about obligation due to the monies, I find I’m rethinking the just being kind assessment. Was Rashid purposely bringing Dresden into obligation? 

If so, I wonder what his various motives were? Some could be as a measure of protection to keep Dresden from becoming “other” to the council. Others could be less altruistic. Now you say this, though, it seems very calculated to re-obligate Dresden to me.

[Mira]

As for the deaths at Biancas, I imagine that it's chalked up to them not knowing who, if anyone, actually was killed by the fire vs already dead.  Though given the grudge some folks held against him, you'd think they'd try a bit harder to look into it.

   Harry did feel guilt that he actions might have killed some of those at the party.. However it was Michael I believe that said, 1] as you say  no way of knowing who may have died from Harry's fire rant since most were dead or about to die in any case.. 2] It was never Harry intent to kill the young people at the party, if any died by fire it was indirect consequences not as actual targets of Harry's spell.  Which brings up the question, yes, killing with magic breaks the First Law... But one does that go for those who happen to die because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and not the target of the actual spell?

[Arjan]

Part 2 response because F this heatwave in Europe! I can’t sleep!

I was thinking about your reply in concert with Rashid’s conversation with Dresden. Upon reading that bit in the book, I had just assumed Rashid was being kind. But, now, with what you said about obligation due to the monies, I find I’m rethinking the just being kind assessment. Was Rashid purposely bringing Dresden into obligation? 

If so, I wonder what his various motives were? Some could be as a measure of protection to keep Dresden from becoming “other” to the council. Others could be less altruistic. Now you say this, though, it seems very calculated to re-obligate Dresden to me.

That is the Sidhe way of looking at things. And as always that is both true and uncomfortable and not how humans would look at the same facts.

The gatekeeper is simply saying: what you do for winter is important and not in conflict with your position in the white council. You are still one of us. Jus like me.

And heatwave yes. I could not sleep the night before but this night I was so tired that I just passed out.