Is Lea stronger than the Winter Lady?

[Arjan]

Yeah, but Jim (who knows better than Uriel) has said that it's possible to lose your soul even without turning into something other than human, if you're terrible enough.  So it probably does get whittled down bit by bit.

Except that soul is a fuzzy word and loosing your soul can simply mean turning into something totally different, usually something bad, and loosing all that defined you.

The resulting person would still have a soul but not something recognizable as your soul. And it would be damned anyway.

[peregrine]

Yeah, but as I recall, he was talking about someone being soulless.  Humans having no soul, as related to soulgazing.

[groinkick]

Yeah, but as I recall, he was talking about someone being soulless.  Humans having no soul, as related to soulgazing.

Pondering the context of what Jim said, and Molly "losing" her soul.  What he may be talking about here is you transforming into something else..  Mind, body, and soul.  When you start off as a little baby you have a perfect soul, but if you go down the wrong path your soul may become tainted, scarred, and nothing like it started out as.  So perhaps the context of Molly losing her soul has more to do with her becoming Maeve, a completely different person where the person who was Molly does not exist any longer.

[peregrine]

Given that Bob said that Harry could literally use up his soul with soulfire if he wasn't careful, I'm thinking it's more of a pure loss than transformation.  Possibly that becoming fae means losing the ability to replenish a soul (hugging, having teppanyaki, sex, etc...) so that over time, the wear and tear just grinds it down to nothing.

[Carl]

Yeah the WoJ wasn't particularly subtle on the point. He was very explicit that you could lose it outright. But for Molly it's a slow process that can be resisted to varying degrees. Basically probability says she's going to lose it eventually, but she can theoretically prevent it for effectively forever.

[groinkick]

Given that Bob said that Harry could literally use up his soul with soulfire if he wasn't careful, I'm thinking it's more of a pure loss than transformation.  Possibly that becoming fae means losing the ability to replenish a soul (hugging, having teppanyaki, sex, etc...) so that over time, the wear and tear just grinds it down to nothing.

Yeah the WoJ wasn't particularly subtle on the point. He was very explicit that you could lose it outright. But for Molly it's a slow process that can be resisted to varying degrees. Basically probability says she's going to lose it eventually, but she can theoretically prevent it for effectively forever.

Well if both of these things are accurate then the only conclusion is the Soul is of Creation, love.  Only that goes on, and anything else fades away.  If a person extinguishes all love within themselves they will be dust in the wind.

[Arjan]

Yeah, but as I recall, he was talking about someone being soulless.  Humans having no soul, as related to soulgazing.

Wondered about that. If doing evil makes you loose your soul then what is hell for? Is not loosing your soul preferable to having it tortured for eternity? Or if you are your soul then what are you when you loose it?

[groinkick]

Wondered about that. If doing evil makes you loose your soul then what is hell for? Is not loosing your soul preferable to having it tortured for eternity? Or if you are your soul then what are you when you loose it?

Maybe your soul is like the key to Heaven.  You lose it and you may still exist, just somewhere else.

[Arjan]

Maybe your soul is like the key to Heaven.  You lose it and you may still exist, just somewhere else.

Grevane still had a soul, He did a soul gaze with Butters. I do not think he went to heaven.

[Carl]

Wondered about that. If doing evil makes you loose your soul then what is hell for? Is not loosing your soul preferable to having it tortured for eternity? Or if you are your soul then what are you when you loose it?

Might wanna go back and rad the last couple of chapters of Small Favour again. Bob specifically talks about how lost bits grow back when talking to Harry about soulfire usage.

From the WoJ losing your soul is a whole other different level of evil than normal evil. Normal evil is people like Marcone or Hendriks. Losing your soul evil is probably Kemmelar up.

Sort of the difference between a normal serial killer and Adolf Hitler.

[Arjan]

Might wanna go back and rad the last couple of chapters of Small Favour again. Bob specifically talks about how lost bits grow back when talking to Harry about soulfire usage.

From the WoJ losing your soul is a whole other different level of evil than normal evil. Normal evil is people like Marcone or Hendriks. Losing your soul evil is probably Kemmelar up.

Sort of the difference between a normal serial killer and Adolf Hitler.

So Grevane goes to hell and is tortured for eternity and Kemmler just loses his soul and that is it? Seems the lesson for Grevane is simple, he should have been more evil. Of course that is exactly what he tried to do.

[groinkick]

So Grevane goes to hell and is tortured for eternity and Kemmler just loses his soul and that is it? Seems the lesson for Grevane is simple, he should have been more evil. Of course that is exactly what he tried to do.

What makes you think that A. Grevane has a soul?  If the evidence is a soulgaze I don't think that counts because a soulgaze may just be accurate in a figurative way but not in a literal sense.  And B. How do you know there wasn't a tiny piece of soul that remained that was able to earn him redemption, and he didn't end up in hell? And C. how do we know what hell is like in the Dresdenverse? 

[Arjan]

What makes you think that A. Grevane has a soul?  If the evidence is a soulgaze I don't think that counts because a soulgaze may just be accurate in a figurative way but not in a literal sense. 

A soulgaze is one thing but we also have Uriel's satisfaction when Corpstaker takes the southbound train. Why would that be satisfying if Corpstaker had no soul and it did not go to hell?

And B. How do you know there wasn't a tiny piece of soul that remained that was able to earn him redemption, and he didn't end up in hell?

Because when you are dead free will and chances for redemption are over. According to Heaven's most cited spokesman.

And C. how do we know what hell is like in the Dresdenverse?

It must be bad because Chauncy is there and we are happy because Harry's mother escaped him.

And Hell's Bells there is a rich mythology about it and in the dresdenverse all mythology is true unless specifically denied.

The devil is a real person and we have seen the fallen. You don't want to spend time with them let alone all the time there is.

[groinkick]

A soulgaze is one thing but we also have Uriel's satisfaction when Corpstaker takes the southbound train. Why would that be satisfying if Corpstaker had no soul and it did not go to hell?Because when you are dead free will and chances for redemption are over. According to Heaven's most cited spokesman.It must be bad because Chauncy is there and we are happy because Harry's mother escaped him.

And Hell's Bells there is a rich mythology about it and in the dresdenverse all mythology is true unless specifically denied.

The devil is a real person and we have seen the fallen. You don't want to spend time with them let alone all the time there is.

Well then what we have is something inconsistent, or very complex system from Jim.  His statements about losing your soul vs suffering eternal punishment don't jive.  Not existing sounds preferable to eternal punishment, and being more evil getting a lighter sentence doesn't seem right.

Losing your soul may mean automatic hell maybe?  That doesn't sound right either though for someone like Molly.  Again either an inconsistent idea, or something more complex.  Would be a great thing if someone could lay it out like this for Jim and get a less confusing response.

[Wizard Sibelis]

Mmmm, *insert metatheory here*
I think that people whom go to hell/heaven are specifically people who buy into that system, even on a negative affirmation of knowing your probably going to hell. But judgement by someone is inevitable. An it's likely all affirmative judges within reality, like Hades, Mab, St Peter(if i'm recalling correctly the heavenly doorman) are all sustitutes for the cosmic inside vs outside judge, 'the adversary'. I think it's fate to go through your own personal gateway(as seen in Thomas) to be judged in a mirror of your life. It's why I believe the angel of death in GS to be Susan, covered in the tattoo's ink blotch that defined her fight to keep herself for so long.
In this way ll inside judges and afterlifes are meant simply to keep balance vs nonexistence/outside. It's why they exist in the NN, a technical part of reality.