In Hindsight, These Story Choices Were a Mistake

[Arjan]

It was a crisis just like during dead beat. Some wardens really chose for the carreer but some wizards with the right type of magic were probably just conscripted, the council does that when necessary. Some wardens probably didn’t even want to become a warden.

If Elaine had not botched Ramirez test she would have been made a warden in no time.

[peregrine]

I'd like to see a source for the idea that Justin only became a warden like Harry did, as part of a crisis.  He took out Kemmler, sure.  But nothing I remember reading suggests that was his first time at the rodeo.  And if he was crooked long before then, becoming a warden would be a great advantage to him in terms of authority and access.

[Mr. Death]

Recall the WOJ that a lot of wizards are sitting on offers of power like Harry's been offered, and are just sitting on them for a rainy day.

Yes, Morgan would destroy Bob -- but that has as much to do with him being a fanatic as it is with being a Warden.

I'm not saying Justin was a pure and righteous soul -- we all know he went bad. I'm just saying, we don't know that he actually cast any black magic while he was in the company of the wardens.

Or hell, maybe he killed a bunch of Kemmler's apprentices in "self defense" with black magic during the battle, and that nudged him just enough to decide to take Bob.

[vultur]

Not a mistake, just something that a lot of people misunderstand.

Also, I just re-read the early books, and the two instances I noticed of guns failing destructively (Greg Beckitt in Sells' house at the end of SF, and one of Bianca's goons in the confrontation at the end of GP) were in environments/situations with much more magic present than just Harry's proximity -- Sells' house was the site of a big thaumaturgical spell, and Bianca's place was the center of a major effort to thin the barrier between the Nevernever and the mortal world.
Murphy's gun doesn't mess up just because Harry is standing nearby.

Apparently, using black magic, even once with a reasonable cause (self defense) like Harry did against Justin had repercussions on Harry, but in Cold Days as he races from the wild hunt and uses magic to blast a hound the hound turns out to be a human - another use of black magic on Harry's part, but we haven't seen any effect from that.

Well, Harry killed MacFinn the loup-garou with magic back in book 2, and that doesn't seem to have counted -- because MacFinn was a monster, not a human, right then. Harry's also killed at least one Denarian with magic, with no apparent repercussions, and he discussed that fight with Luccio afterwards; the Laws never came up. It seems that beings with human souls who are "in monster mode" at the time don't count.

Additionally, things keep getting redefined in the series as we learn more.  Most wizards seem to think it would be fine to kill white court vampires with magic - no black magic twisting them because of it.  But over time, we've learned they are scions (per an angel), human enough to become the winter knight, and probably human enough to wield a sword of faith.  All things that point to them being human enough that it should be black magic to use magic to kill them, but we've never heard that is the case...

And Harry does kill one with magic (Madrigal Raith) with another Warden (Carlos) watching, and it's never brought up. WCV's pretty clearly do not count. Why not is a big, big open question though...

Although, Mab says Thomas is human enough to be Winter Knight because he's in love. I don't think any random WCV could be... definitely not one like Madeline who is totally controlled by their hunger, and probably not one like Lara who is partnered with it. (I guess you could argue that Lara, sometime, could choose to live like Thomas though. I think Madeline was past that point though.)

The whole black magic thing appears subjective to the viewpoint of the caster, but then we are told repeatedly that it isn't (both in the books and in WoJ).  It doesn't make sense.

Well, I think there's more than one kind of subjectivity here. It won't be non-corrupting just because you believe it's right or because you meant well. (Instead, you'll just end up doing more and more black magic to 'make things better'.) But there might be some room for subjectivity in other areas.

IE, a wizard who really knew Thomas as a person might be corrupted by frying him, whereas another wizard who just met him as a WCV across a dueling ground wouldn't be -- because the first guy would then have to deal with "well, this guy is a pure human, but he's way more evil, why can't I just fry him?"

 IMO the corruption has to do with the direct act of will required to use magic. If a faerie put a glamour over a human to make them look like an attacking Black Court Vampire, a wizard who then fried them might not necessarily be corrupted, because the act of will involved was "kill that vampire" not "kill a person".

[Gman]

Recall the WOJ that a lot of wizards are sitting on offers of power like Harry's been offered, and are just sitting on them for a rainy day.

Yes, Morgan would destroy Bob -- but that has as much to do with him being a fanatic as it is with being a Warden.

I'm not saying Justin was a pure and righteous soul -- we all know he went bad. I'm just saying, we don't know that he actually cast any black magic while he was in the company of the wardens.

Or hell, maybe he killed a bunch of Kemmler's apprentices in "self defense" with black magic during the battle, and that nudged him just enough to decide to take Bob.

Perhaps one of Kemmler's minions did a bodyswap with him like they did with Luccio, except Justin died and the Necromancer got a new body and identity.

[Arjan]

I'd like to see a source for the idea that Justin only became a warden like Harry did, as part of a crisis.  He took out Kemmler, sure.  But nothing I remember reading suggests that was his first time at the rodeo.  And if he was crooked long before then, becoming a warden would be a great advantage to him in terms of authority and access.

There is not enough information. We are talking possible scenario's here.

Justin could have been crooked all the time but a position as a warden might actually be a perfect position to get crooked. Or if he was crooked a crisis like this might have been the perfect time to join the wardens with lower standards and less oversight.

Or he was more or less forced but even that would go into the books as volunteered, just like Harry.

The point is that we do not have to expect high standards from the average warden during a crisis, just normal wizard standards. Justin did probably resign after Kemmler's death to do research which suggests his heart was not really into it anyway.   

[Mira]

There is not enough information. We are talking possible scenario's here.

Justin could have been crooked all the time but a position as a warden might actually be a perfect position to get crooked. Or if he was crooked a crisis like this might have been the perfect time to join the wardens with lower standards and less oversight.

Or he was more or less forced but even that would go into the books as volunteered, just like Harry.

The point is that we do not have to expect high standards from the average warden during a crisis, just normal wizard standards. Justin did probably resign after Kemmler's death to do research which suggests his heart was not really into it anyway.   

Yes, consider, once a wizard was established on the White Council, then if he or she applies for or is asked to be a warden, unless he or she did something overt, who'd know?  Most experienced wizards know how to avoid soul gazes, Harry talks of avoiding any accidental ones after the first two or three books.  A really skilled wizard can even hide a lot of facts about his or herself, Harry had no clue about who Eb really was though they did soul gaze when they met.  That is why he was so shocked when he found out that Eb was the Council's assassin...  Wizards are not allowed to otherwise go into each other's minds, that would be breaking one of the Laws... In the case of the wardens who do soul gazes for evidence, if it is a young would be warlock, he or she is going to get the chop most of the time anyway so it is doubtful even if they said they saw something they'd be believed..
So yeah, very easy for a wizard gone bad to bide his or her time in plain sight..

[groinkick]

A really skilled wizard can even hide a lot of facts about his or herself, Harry had no clue about who Eb really was though they did soul gaze when they met. 

He saw the real Eb.  The Blackstaff protected him from dark magical staining that occurs in warlocks.  Eb didn't hide who he really is, Harry saw the real man.  I see Eb kind of like the Rambo character in the movies.  Yes he's incredibly good at killing, but he takes absolutely no joy in it.  He hates it.  He does it because he thinks he has no choice, or is pushed so hard he needs to do it.  Harry most likely saw a strong man who is dedicated to justice, a protector, and of great power, and who's suffered great pain.  None of those tell you he's an assassin until you find out and then can connect the dots for justice, protection, power, and pain.

As for Justin.  My guess would be that as an apprentice to a Senior Council member that he was let in without too much question.  He was probably an ambitious man.  When he discovered Bob, those ambitions grew because he had access to some of the most powerful magic known.  The laws began to appear as obstacles that someone like himself shouldn't have to abide by. 

[Mr. Death]

As for Justin.  My guess would be that as an apprentice to a Senior Council member that he was let in without too much question.  He was probably an ambitious man.  When he discovered Bob, those ambitions grew because he had access to some of the most powerful magic known.  The laws began to appear as obstacles that someone like himself shouldn't have to abide by.

Oh yeah, that's a good point and I forgot about it entirely.

Someone who's a direct apprentice to someone so high up would probably not be scrutinized too carefully most of the time.

[Snark Knight]

Yes.  Morgan probably would.  Because he's a warden.  I'm not arguing all the wizards would.  Probably a lot of them wouldn't.
But a warden, tasked with doing things like shutting down what Kemmler wants to do, enforcing the laws (and will of the Council) probably would.

I can see Carlos potentially keeping the skull and using Bob for good, if he came across it under the right circumstances. It wouldn't be the first time he took the position that the Senior Council were a bunch of overly conservative old fools (mutinying in Changes), and/or that what they didn't know (hunt for the 'Black Hats') wouldn't hurt them.

[Jcarlson171]

Throwing in my 2 cents on the wizards with tech subject.

Doesnt Harry state that the magic/tech issue comes from people being conflicted and that creating a magic field around them due to dissonance? Also I believe it is also stated that belief is very important when it comes to magic. Therefore could the technology effect be something like "if they believe it should work it will" semi borrowing the system from Ilona Andrews books where technology that people think is like magic doesnt really get affected by magic. I.E. Harry expects complicated phones to fail and electrical lights however he expects his car to work so the internal combustion engine is fine.

[groinkick]

Throwing in my 2 cents on the wizards with tech subject.

Doesnt Harry state that the magic/tech issue comes from people being conflicted and that creating a magic field around them due to dissonance? Also I believe it is also stated that belief is very important when it comes to magic. Therefore could the technology effect be something like "if they believe it should work it will" semi borrowing the system from Ilona Andrews books where technology that people think is like magic doesnt really get affected by magic. I.E. Harry expects complicated phones to fail and electrical lights however he expects his car to work so the internal combustion engine is fine.

I think it has more to do with the human condition.  Humans are always conflicted.  Always have little thoughts flying around our brains at all times of the day.  Combine that with magical energy and it would be a magical field that's always in flux. 

Now I'm thinking if Jim wants he will be able to make adjustments.  He said that wizards with age become more set in their ways...  Could this mean an older, more mature wizard could use electronics because they are more "stable"?  I don't know but I could see Jim leaving that loophole.  The older wizards don't use them because they don't like them.  However Harry is getting older, maybe in a few books he will be less destructive to electronics. 

[vultur]

He saw the real Eb.  The Blackstaff protected him from dark magical staining that occurs in warlocks.  Eb didn't hide who he really is, Harry saw the real man.  I see Eb kind of like the Rambo character in the movies.  Yes he's incredibly good at killing, but he takes absolutely no joy in it.  He hates it.  He does it because he thinks he has no choice, or is pushed so hard he needs to do it.  Harry most likely saw a strong man who is dedicated to justice, a protector, and of great power, and who's suffered great pain.  None of those tell you he's an assassin until you find out and then can connect the dots for justice, protection, power, and pain.

Also, while a soulgaze always gives you true information, it doesn't tell you everything about someone... when Harry soulgazes Marcone in SF, he finds out that Marcone is driven by some secret, but he doesn't learn what it is. Harry might have seen that Eb felt guilty about something, but no more.

It also seems to be influenced by what you're looking for (when Harry soulgazes Molly, he sees a bunch of possible futures because he's trying to find out if she's over-the-edge corrupted; other soulgazes, like Marcone's, don't show possible futures). So if Harry was looking for "will Eb really protect me" he might have gotten confirmation of that rather than any of the Blackstaff stuff.

[Mira]

Also, while a soulgaze always gives you true information, it doesn't tell you everything about someone... when Harry soulgazes Marcone in SF, he finds out that Marcone is driven by some secret, but he doesn't learn what it is. Harry might have seen that Eb felt guilty about something, but no more.

It also seems to be influenced by what you're looking for (when Harry soulgazes Molly, he sees a bunch of possible futures because he's trying to find out if she's over-the-edge corrupted; other soulgazes, like Marcone's, don't show possible futures). So if Harry was looking for "will Eb really protect me" he might have gotten confirmation of that rather than any of the Blackstaff stuff.

Also Harry was a sixteen year old kid at the time, little experience with soul gazes or how to interpret what he was seeing in the first place.

[groinkick]

Soulgaze obviously doesn't tell you everything...  Harry didn't even get that Eb was his grandfather from it!