Author Topic: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?  (Read 19817 times)

Offline vultur

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Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2018, 04:46:16 AM »
Well, both of these rely on each other, so first I'll point out that what Mab did to Harry was stupid, dangerous, and necessary. When Harry realized what had been done to him, he had a total freaking meltdown in Michael's shed. He literally did not understand the words "blasting rod."

That was after a day. Imagine what it would do to a person if it came apart after a month, or a year—suddenly realizing that you were not who you thought you were for an extended time. I think you'd have some fundamentally fractured psyches.

Oh, the realization itself would be really unpleasant -- but I don't think there'd necessarily be lasting damage.

I mean, we see the Merlin and Luccio in Changes after they were mind-warped for years by Peabody and they don't act messed up. Luccio even got body-swapped by the Corpsetaker, and she's still quite functional (it did give her nightmares -- but she was way less affected than Rosie and Nelson, from a way more fundamental attack, and one that was malicious rather than well-intentioned).

For that matter, Harry got his mind invaded by the Corpsetaker in DB and Molly and Butters got possessed by the Corpsetaker in GS. They don't show aftereffects like Molly's victims.

The evidence seems to show, IMO, that those kind of aftereffects only happened because Molly had no idea what she was doing -- the only other times we see serious, lasting effects are from actually having big chunks of your spirit eaten (Murphy and the Nightmare in GP, and Justine and Thomas in BR).

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I don't think Harry was ever tainted to begin with.

Sure he was - Ulsharavas (early in DM) can detect the taint on him.

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Yeah, and she's been entirely stable since Changes, right? What about all of the murders she committed as the Rag Lady? She has a meltdown explaining how easy it is to kill crooked cops with magic, and it's pretty obvious she's messed up, and not just from screwing with Harry's head.
Molly is crazy, sure, but there's a bunch of other factors playing into that -- her guilt for Harry's death and her need to fill his role would be quite enough to severely mess up a lot of people, and there's also her heightened emotional sensitivity and the psychic-shock aftereffects of Chichen Itza.

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I mean, Molly was protecting Chicago, but still outright killing people with her magic
We actually don't know that, it's pretty ambiguous, since:
- some of the Rag Lady stuff was Lea
- the turtlenecks are indistinguishable from normal humans once they die, since the Fomor implants turn into ectoplasm
- Molly's talents aren't particularly conducive to killing directly with magic - being under a veil and stabbing someone doesn't break the First Law, and I don't think the illusion-of-a-gun thing that led to getting someone shot would either. An Alpha-style werewolf killing in wolf form or a Warden binding someone with a spell and then killing with an enchanted sword don't break the First Law.

Yes, but remember when Harry would have died from his first encounter with the Corpsetaker but for Gard's intervention?  The reason he almost died was because of lack of proper training against mental attacks..  The reason for his lack of training weren't the usual ones, i.e. Harry's own laziness or lack of exposure to it because of Justin, but because the Council feared and prohibited any form of this magical training beyond the minimal defensive type.   So the Council prohibited it even if permission from the two parties was granted.. 

Yes. According to Harry in GS, that was later changed (probably in response to Peabody's mind-warping the Senior Council and Wardens, although maybe it started earlier -- maybe Luccio lobbied for it after her experience with the Corpsetaker).

Offline peregrine

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Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2018, 04:59:26 AM »
Re: an Alpha killing someone in wolf form, have we seen them actually kill any pure humans, in which they might run afoul of the Council?

Offline Arjan

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Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2018, 05:07:41 AM »
Yes, but remember when Harry would have died from his first encounter with the Corpsetaker but for Gard's intervention?  The reason he almost died was because of lack of proper training against mental attacks..  The reason for his lack of training weren't the usual ones, i.e. Harry's own laziness or lack of exposure to it because of Justin, but because the Council feared and prohibited any form of this magical training beyond the minimal defensive type.   So the Council prohibited it even if permission from the two parties was granted..   To their credit Harry and Molly both thought this was stupid and trained each other, however they did it in secret because it would have gotten them into a lot of trouble...  Enemies on the Council may even have gone so far as to declare it an infraction of the Law.
The type of training Harry and Molly did requires a high level of trust between the participants, that can not be standard council routine if only for that reason.

But the weak training against mental attack? That was just because the council let it slide, maybe even under Peabodies influence. The older wizards knew how to do it and did set up some training after turncoat, both were impossible if it was really breaking the laws.

The council policy surely changed but the laws itself don’t change as easily as the councils policies.

Though I can buy Harry or Molly breaking the laws under immediate pressure of some emergency seeing no other way out, there is no undisputed example in the books since proven guilty but I can....

A scheduled weekly appointment as part of the apprentice training? Every Thursday afternoon law breaking at 16:30? Really?

Harry simply can not do such a thing.
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Offline vultur

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Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« Reply #63 on: July 12, 2018, 05:46:51 AM »
Re: an Alpha killing someone in wolf form, have we seen them actually kill any pure humans, in which they might run afoul of the Council?

Seen, no, but I think it's mentioned that they've dealt with mundane criminals as well as supernatural predators. Maybe they all survived, but that's not the impression I got.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« Reply #64 on: July 12, 2018, 06:14:05 AM »
Seen, no, but I think it's mentioned that they've dealt with mundane criminals as well as supernatural predators. Maybe they all survived, but that's not the impression I got.
Just killed with normal claws by a normal wolf. Not even a magic wolf. Not like the wolf used a magic sword or something like that. I see no problems.
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Offline morriswalters

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Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« Reply #65 on: July 12, 2018, 11:04:43 AM »
Which brings up the point: Why the heck was she starving? lack of imagination?
Maybe because she's honest?  And being a villain is tiring, I prefer to be lazy.
Molly and Harry were in violation to some degree by practicing on each other.
I wouldn't think so.  The council actually teaches the defenses.  And after the events of Turn Coat, it seems obvious that they must have practitioners that can help those who have been tampered with.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« Reply #66 on: July 12, 2018, 05:20:01 PM »
Yes, but remember when Harry would have died from his first encounter with the Corpsetaker but for Gard's intervention?  The reason he almost died was because of lack of proper training against mental attacks..  The reason for his lack of training weren't the usual ones, i.e. Harry's own laziness or lack of exposure to it because of Justin, but because the Council feared and prohibited any form of this magical training beyond the minimal defensive type.   So the Council prohibited it even if permission from the two parties was granted..   To their credit Harry and Molly both thought this was stupid and trained each other, however they did it in secret because it would have gotten them into a lot of trouble...  Enemies on the Council may even have gone so far as to declare it an infraction of the Law.

Well as Jim said he sees the Council like the government.  Good intentions that mess everything up.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« Reply #67 on: July 12, 2018, 06:11:13 PM »
Peabody would certainly try to sabotage such training and use his influence to do so but I do not think he could change everyone’s idea about how the laws were meant to be implemented.

If the old guard knew how to do the training and the training was set up without any protests about its legality it had always been legal. Apart from the obvious reading of the laws that tells us it is legal.

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Offline vultur

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Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2018, 01:23:54 AM »
Peabody would certainly try to sabotage such training and use his influence to do so but I do not think he could change everyone’s idea about how the laws were meant to be implemented.

If the old guard knew how to do the training and the training was set up without any protests about its legality it had always been legal. Apart from the obvious reading of the laws that tells us it is legal.

The implication seems to be that training that way was in disuse for a really, really long time though (centuries, since only a few wizards remembered how to do it). Probably from way before Black Council/Circle activity.

There's enough sway in the Wardens' enforcement of the Laws that I don't think it's as simple as 'if it's legal now it always was'. (I think under different circumstances Harry could have been executed for animating Sue the T-Rex.)

More likely, though, cooperative willing mind-magic training was never flat out the-Wardens-will-kill-you illegal, but it was Not Done because the Council considered mind magic in general way too dangerous an area, until Peabody and/or Corpsetaker demonstrated just how suicidally stupid that idea was.