Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?

[huangjimmy108]

And Harry's reaction when he learns Molly looked into him is instructive:

"To her", not "To me". It is clear that Harry is more worried about Molly getting tempted rather than himself getting psychicly damage. Furthermore, since Molly is under the doom and is a recovering warlock, things are more sensitive for her compare to most. Those who are under the "Doom" cannot even touch the grey areas of magic, just like a recovering addict not suppose to stay around drugs even if the addict does not really take one.

Judging whether or not entering another mind is cosmically tainting is rather difficult. Firstly, we get mixed signals from different characters and none of these characters are reliable sources.

For example, Morgan is known to be overly strict and unforgiving. Luccio is known to bend rules as she did during book 7 and her thoughts during her younger days in the SS is rather telling. During Smf and TC she herself is under someone else's influence making her decisions suspect. Harry himself is sometimes overly fanatical in enforcing the laws, especially when it comes to himself. His fear of falling into the dark side makes him do stupid things like not using magic to reheat his bath water. On the other hand, Harry is willing to bend, even break some rules when it comes to saving someone else's life like summoning chonsy. Harry also someone who operates under the "doom of damicles" most of the time, either whether he is under the "Doom" himself or when he is carrying Molly's probation. If I am him, operating under such conditions would make me 3 times more careful and rigid compare to people like Carlos or even young Luccio. It makes Harry less prone to play with magic in the grey areas. In short, Harry's perspective is not completely reliable either.

So far, we say Molly entering another's mind twice. In my book both are without permission. Though Harry subconsciously agrees, his agreement is given after Molly scan his mind. When Molly did it Harry does not grant permission. Both cases, in book 10 and 11, left both Molly, Luccio and Harry unharm. Not to mention the multiple practicing sessions between Harry and Molly describe in book 13 and the mental communications between Harry and Elaine in book 9.

When Harry ask Molly to wiped his memory during changes, is another case when Molly do some real mind magic. It is not "Mind scan", but a full blown "Rewiring" case. It is done with permission and under the full knowledge of Harry himself. Regardless of the permission however, the act cause major damage, even though the damage is amplified due to other factors, but it is damage nonetheless.

There is a minor discrepancy between the 7 laws and the practical examples of mind magic. Invitation definitely matters. It at least reduce the damage for certain. But whether invitation could completely makes this suspected black magic into white magic? Well, I can't say for sure. I mean, even with permission, Molly rewiring Harry's mind in book 12 still cause damage, while without invitation Luccio, Harry and Molly come out clean in book 10 and 11.

[Mr. Death]

Morgan was there when Susan vomited it up; he must have known about it. But no, he didn't try to get Harry on that charge.

So clearly love potions don't violate any of the Laws of Magic.

So, from a distance of a dozen feet, Morgan can instantly and accurately identify a specific potion out of a stream of vomit that also includes a second potion, stomach acid and whatever else she had eaten or drank earlier?

That is a huge stretch.

And just because Lea's on Harry's side doesn't mean she isn't a threat. Nicodemus is nominally on Harry's side for large parts of Skin Game, for instance.

"To her", not "To me". It is clear that Harry is more worried about Molly getting tempted rather than himself getting psychicly damage. Furthermore, since Molly is under the doom and is a recovering warlock, things are more sensitive for her compare to most. Those who are under the "Doom" cannot even touch the grey areas of magic, just like a recovering addict not suppose to stay around drugs even if the addict does not really take one.

That's kind of my point. Even though it was only "looking" and with the best of intentions, Harry considers it at the very least a huge temptation to break the law, if not an outright violation in itself.

Judging whether or not entering another mind is cosmically tainting is rather difficult. Firstly, we get mixed signals from different characters and none of these characters are reliable sources.

This is true, a lot of what we get is second hand.

So far, we say Molly entering another's mind twice. In my book both are without permission. Though Harry subconsciously agrees, his agreement is given after Molly scan his mind. When Molly did it Harry does not grant permission. Both cases, in book 10 and 11, left both Molly, Luccio and Harry unharm. Not to mention the multiple practicing sessions between Harry and Molly describe in book 13 and the mental communications between Harry and Elaine in book 9.

We don't know that it left them unharmed. We don't see in Molly's head, and both Harry and Luccio have much more harmful things in their head. It'd be like saying a knife to your hand left you unharmed, because it's nothing compared to the bullet in your gut.

When Harry ask Molly to wiped his memory during changes, is another case when Molly do some real mind magic. It is not "Mind scan", but a full blown "Rewiring" case. It is done with permission and under the full knowledge of Harry himself. Regardless of the permission however, the act cause major damage, even though the damage is amplified due to other factors, but it is damage nonetheless.

Agreed.

There is a minor discrepancy between the 7 laws and the practical examples of mind magic. Invitation definitely matters. It at least reduce the damage for certain. But whether invitation could completely makes this suspected black magic into white magic? Well, I can't say for sure. I mean, even with permission, Molly rewiring Harry's mind in book 12 still cause damage, while without invitation Luccio, Harry and Molly come out clean in book 10 and 11.

I'd say it matters more for whether the Council considers it a violation than for whether it damages either wizard.

[Mira]

I don't see how.  Here are what the laws prevent:

Working with Outsiders (obvious reasons here)
Altering time (Obvious reasons here)
Magic that corrupts a wizard (killing, mind rape ect)

Does making/using a love potion fall under any of these?  I don't think so.  Harry mixed some ingredients together, and then use magical energy to activate them.  It didn't require any desire to do harm or anything like that.  Making the potion isn't corrupting from the way the book described it and therefore isn't going to push a wizard into becoming a warlock.  It doesn't mess with time, or Outsiders either.  Therefore I don't see how the potion or it's use violates the laws.

  The same way any laws prevent, depends on the punishment for that deters from breaking it.... More or less...

Decapitation is a pretty good determent, but it isn't perfect as we know..

On the surface I'd agree that making a potion in of itself doesn't turn someone into a warlock... However using the old slippery slope argument or gateway argument, eventually it could.  No, making potions in of itself doesn't break laws or as you say, mess with time or get one to work with Outsiders.. But I think it may depend off how they are being used, if they are overly used to reach a goal.  I seem to remember at some point Harry saying that potions can be a lazy way to get somewhere..  If that is true, it has that in common with black magic which offers an easier way or more bang for the buck so to speak to get where you want to go..  So like anything making potions or most potions doesn't violate the Seven Laws, however abuse of them could...  For the lazy wizard it presents a temptation.. 

[groinkick]

So like anything making potions or most potions doesn't violate the Seven Laws, however abuse of them could...  For the lazy wizard it presents a temptation..

How though?  Magic that corrupts the wizard travels through them.  You could actually see the Blackstaff removing it from Eb.  How could it corrupt them?  It's not about corruption like a vanilla person becoming worse by acts of violence.  Does abusing potions literally transform the wizard into a warlock, creating insanity?  I don't see it.

[Mira]

How though?  Magic that corrupts the wizard travels through them.  You could actually see the Blackstaff removing it from Eb.  How could it corrupt them?  It's not about corruption like a vanilla person becoming worse by acts of violence.  Does abusing potions literally transform the wizard into a warlock, creating insanity?  I don't see it.

  I think it could, key word here is, abusing potions.   First of all you have to ask yourself, what kind of wizard would do that or feel the need to do that?  Point being if he or she is willing to cross the line in that way, it is possible that he or she may be willing to do it in other ways... Like beginning with magic that isn't quite black, but not white either..  As Harry has often pointed out doing so is addictive..  Though I admit the potion in of itself won't lead the wizard down the primrose path to warlockhood...

[groinkick]

  I think it could, key word here is, abusing potions.   First of all you have to ask yourself, what kind of wizard would do that or feel the need to do that?  Point being if he or she is willing to cross the line in that way, it is possible that he or she may be willing to do it in other ways... Like beginning with magic that isn't quite black, but not white either..  As Harry has often pointed out doing so is addictive..  Though I admit the potion in of itself won't lead the wizard down the primrose path to warlockhood...

I don't think potions can create a warlock so it's not a violation.  HOWEVER  I will admit that any wizard who would create potions with the intent to rape is probably going to use mental magic or other dark magic and become a warlock.  It would just be in their nature to do it.

[Paviel]

I don't think potions can create a warlock so it's not a violation.  HOWEVER  I will admit that any wizard who would create potions with the intent to rape is probably going to use mental magic or other dark magic and become a warlock.  It would just be in their nature to do it.

And Victor Sells is a case in point.

[peregrine]

Well, there's also the chest exploding he did.

[huangjimmy108]

I'd say it matters more for whether the Council considers it a violation than for whether it damages either wizard.

On the open, the council definitely say that entering another's mind is a violation, strictly and with no exception. However, this is not the law, but the interpretation of the law.

During Langtry's administration, the council take a very harsh and rigid stance regarding black magic. The council take no chances. This is one of the way the law can be applied, but it is not unchangeable like the 7 laws itself. Which is why there is that "Self defense" clause that saved Harry when he was sixteen. It is clear that the 7 laws has been interpretated and applied differently in the past. We also know that in the early days, there are still some wizards who are willing to attempt to rehabilitate a warlock. All of them failed, which is why the council harden their stance.

The relaxation for the defense of "mind magic" enacted after the events of TC is the most recent example of this changes in application and interpretation of the 7 laws.

The laws itself does not change. The cosmic laws does not change either. The people is the one changing. It is proven again and again that Langtry's overly harsh and rigid view regarding what is constituted black magic and violation of the laws are flawed, and the council is slowly adapting. Harry's successful rehabilitation initiated the reform.

[groinkick]

On the open, the council definitely say that entering another's mind is a violation, strictly and with no exception. However, this is not the law, but the interpretation of the law.

Isn't Langtry sending a telepathic message to everyone a violation since he had to enter their mind to deliver the message?

[peregrine]

Technically, I think that was an illusion.  Somehow.  Despite providing visual aids and happening faster than normal speech.

Also, they had to have gone into people's minds somehow to assess the damage Peabody did, yes?

[Arjan]

Technically, I think that was an illusion.  Somehow.  Despite providing visual aids and happening faster than normal speech.

Also, they had to have gone into people's minds somehow to assess the damage Peabody did, yes?

Yes and they knew exactly how to do so. And how exactly did they inspect the damage Molly did to Nelson?

Lucio’s interpretation might be somewhat more loose but I do not think she goes beyond what is possible. I think there are differences in interpretation not just over time but even between wizards and I strongly suspect wizards like Morgan and Langtry are prepared to interpret the law more strictly if they want to kill someone because they genuinely believe that person is a warlock. And less strict for themselves if necessary.

I think the total rejection of mind magic before turncoat was just a way to keep the kids safe from temptation not something really enforced by the laws. It is also easier, you don’t have to go into the details. It was policy, not law and because of that it was easily changed.

[Mr. Death]

Isn't Langtry sending a telepathic message to everyone a violation since he had to enter their mind to deliver the message?

That appears to have been on the same level of surface thoughts as Harry's communication spell to Elaine.

Yes and they knew exactly how to do so. And how exactly did they inspect the damage Molly did to Nelson?

Harry was able to inspect damage to Rosie with the Sight.

And yeah, different wizards are going to have different -- and occasionally self-serving -- interpretations of the laws. Which is why I tend to use the cosmic laws as a more solid guideline.

[Arjan]

That appears to have been on the same level of surface thoughts as Harry's communication spell to Elaine.
Harry was able to inspect damage to Rosie with the Sight.

And yeah, different wizards are going to have different -- and occasionally self-serving -- interpretations of the laws. Which is why I tend to use the cosmic laws as a more solid guideline.

What is solid about these “cosmic” laws? They are not even codified. They can not be used in any court. The only thing it says is that some uses of magic are bad for your soul and we have some obvious examples but you can not use those laws to examine things like mutual agreed mind magic, we simply do not have enough evidence.

You can say something useful about the seven laws though. We have the wordings and some cases and some quotes from the books.

Unless someone mentions otherwise I have to assume we are talking about the seven laws of magic as used by the white council.

If not please mention so. Something like laws of magic^cosmic

[Wizard Sibelis]

What is solid about these “cosmic” laws? They are not even codified. They can not be used in any court. The only thing it says is that some uses of magic are bad for your soul and we have some obvious examples but you can not use those laws to examine things like mutual agreed mind magic, we simply do not have enough evidence.

Actually I think we do have enough evidence to codify how the laws might specifically work... if you look at the evidence shown within the DF, it's actually based around wither or not your violating free will directly... hence Molly was trained by Leah to use illusion and other non abrogating methods to instill fear as a weapon, as opposed to the original violations using fear. Or the fae themselves being in the balance, never going into the negative with Rent because of the equivalency methods they use combined with the fact they simply do not directly violate free will...

Random tangential, They never violate any of TWG's 3 weaponized powers either, in Duty they maintain a warriors sense of Hope. In keeping their word they keep faith and in respecting homestead laws they respect the sanctity of love.
You might disagree but youd be hard pressed to show me an example disproving such a connection threading the 7 laws with free will...

extended tangential, the 7 laws(and the 7 Courts) may actually coincide indirectly with the 7 deadly sins. Though the exact translation would take some bearing of mind, some are easier to see, like wrath=murder or pride/hubris=TT and others you have to wonder a bit at, like sloth=enthrallment or invasion of mind=envy... and some really stretch but still fit vaguely, like Lust(non physical definition)=reaching beyond the outer gates