Author Topic: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?  (Read 57693 times)

Wizard Sibelis

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #180 on: August 07, 2018, 08:55:11 PM »
  Well, if a person unknowingly drinks a love potion, that is transforming someone against their will.  One may consent or accept a drink, but would one consent if one knew there was something in it to make them do what he or she didn't want to do?
DUDE, hold up, cause I have a woj from FB about not knowing the consequences of your choices is a fact of life. Note that the fae enchant food all the time too...
Quote from: Jim Butcher
Jim Butcher  Yeah, but all your choices count, man. Not just the ones where someone says, "Are you absolutely sure about your answer."

Making a choice is stating who you are. Unequivocally. You can talk as much as you want about whatever goodness you want--your actions are what matter. Those choices, in some cases to /take lives/, weren't subconscious.

Molly said, "I'm in line with Winter." A BUNCH of times. And making statements like that add up--not because you're initialing a point on a contract for a lawyer, but because you are /changing yourself/ by making choices like that.

Creating life, ending life. Those are the heaviest hitting choices, the ones that truly matter, the ones that are irrevocable.

Choosing not to be self-aware enough to own what you're doing is a choice as well. One Molly didn't make. She knew about bargains. She knew the score. She didn't know how deep was the water she was getting into, but she ran and jumped off the cliff.
In reply to if Molly made a subconscious matrix style choice when accepting the mantle.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 09:18:04 PM by Wizard Sibelis »

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #181 on: August 07, 2018, 09:00:02 PM »
Molly never got tainted for what she did to Harry in "Changes," so clearly that wasn't nearly as bad as what she did to her friends in "Proven Guilty."

And the main difference, as far as I can see, is that Harry consented to what she did in "Changes."
How do we know she never got tainted? I mean, the next time we see her, she's clearly unhinged. Guilt has something to do with that, yes. But given we haven't seen her soulgazed again and there's no objective measurement, how can you definitively say what did and didn't taint her?

Also, another difference: What she did to Nelson was tainted by her anger. What she did to Harry was not.

Which is, come to think of it, another reason why even "benign" mind-reading or manipulation is extremely dangerous. Molly didn't know her own anger toward Nelson was driving him paranoid. Emotion has always, consistently been said to affect magic (Harry's fire is hotter when he's pissed off, for instance); so even if you got "consent" to muck about in someone's mind, being in a bad mood when you do it is like the surgeon's scalpel slipping because they're distracted.

Reread the part in Proven Guilty when Mouse gets shot.  Reconcile what Harry tells Molly then, with what he asks of her in Changes.
Presuming you mean Turn Coat, there's still a mountain of context and situational differences between those two situations. In Changes, Harry is in complete despair and asking her to help him kill himself. He sees himself as either A. being enthralled to Mab or B. getting a bullet in the skull within 24 hours, so any negative effects of Molly's actions on him are sort of a non-issue.

It's definitely not a "blasé" situation, the whole context is one of Harry doing a number of things that he would never, ever even consider if he wasn't extremely desperate. He's at the Godzilla Threshold, he literally said he'd let the world (and Molly) burn to keep his daughter safe.

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I don't own the game so I'll leave it to you to take whatever you want away from it.  However given that Molly had no formal training in Proven Guilty, than it is obvious to me that she did indeed read a mind by accident.  If as a later poster has suggested that other minds are broadcasting than they need to shut their windows. :)
S'why I quoted the relevant bits.

"Accident" has nothing to do with whether she's formally trained or not -- it has to do with intent. Molly willfully, intentionally, with forethought and planning (she read books about it), went into Rosie and Nelson's minds. That is, by definition, not an accident.

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If your point is that the council would never use it, you have failed to convince me.
That is not a point I have made or attempted to make.

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To be honest I have no idea of what the stain is or how it works.  For the purpose of avoiding headaches I treat it like Heroin. 
(click to show/hide)
We know that it affects the wizard in such a way that they feel compelled -- or, at least, justified -- in doing it again. Use magic to kill, and you're more likely to use it to kill again. Molly used mind magic? Well, we see several situations where her go-to solution is, "Use mind-magic again."

It is very clear that only invading minds is forbidden, you can invite someone in your mind to do all kind of things except enthrallment, that has a seperate law.
The game book's write-up (a game that was composed by fans of the series with direct approval of Jim Butcher), makes it very clear that any mind reading is a violation in the bit I quoted.

And Molly isn't reading minds; she's feeling emotions. She's always been identified as an empath, not a telepath. She feels Harry's lust, but doesn't get any of the context, which is why she grossly misinterprets things and offers herself to her despite Harry clearly thinking very loudly how bad of an idea it is.

Even with Mouse, she says outright she's not reading his mind, but feeling his emotions and intentions; it's probably easier with dogs, they kinda wear all their emotions on their sleeves.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 09:06:22 PM by Mr. Death »
Compels solve everything!

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Wizard Sibelis

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #182 on: August 07, 2018, 09:23:42 PM »
Hearing Mouse speak solid words plan as day, isn't hearing an emotion... and it would seem the gate and lock that keeps thoughts inside our heads, you know, where we keep our emotions, must have a natural broadcaster for someone else to be the receiver without help... Mmmm. Guess we do have a entrance.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 09:25:13 PM by Wizard Sibelis »

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #183 on: August 07, 2018, 10:31:44 PM »
That is not a point I have made or attempted to make.
We have now cleared that up. :)

It's definitely not a "blasé" situation, the whole context is one of Harry doing a number of things that he would never, ever even consider if he wasn't extremely desperate. He's at the Godzilla Threshold, he literally said he'd let the world (and Molly) burn to keep his daughter safe.
S'why I quoted the relevant bits.

I lost track, Turn Coat it is. And let Molly burn he did.  Which makes for good drama.  But it makes Harry look like a self righteous ass.  The whole next book is mostly about showing Harry that.  Right and wrong doesn't change because you are under pressure.

There is no definitive way to say where the line is on mind magic.  JB won't lay down the law, other than to say it is banned by the WC.  However when it's convenient he will use it.  When Elaine is under attack in White Knight, Harry not only hears her he hears the vampire. That's pretty far in without consent.  Even if they had used the spell previously.  Anyway I think this is moving off point.  So I'll let it lay.

Wizard Sibelis

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #184 on: August 08, 2018, 02:10:40 AM »
Oh Morris, I'd straight forgotten about that, Harry and Elaine spent HOURS talking psychically in school without repercussion or mention of dark magic, even years later when Harry uses it to contact Elaine it's not an issue...

Offline peregrine

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #185 on: August 08, 2018, 03:53:00 AM »
Also Eb's communication stone.  Though that could be something akin to the Merlin's "telepathy" which was just an illusion.  Might not be quite so intrusive as actual mind to mind contact.

As for Elaine and the vampire, that could go towards the vampire "breaking down the door" to her psyche so its easier for him to get in.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 03:55:07 AM by peregrine »

Offline Mira

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #186 on: August 08, 2018, 04:01:10 AM »
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DUDE, hold up, cause I have a woj from FB about not knowing the consequences of your choices is a fact of life. Note that the fae enchant food all the time too...

But wizards are not the Fae, are they?  And DUDE, this smacks of blaming the victim.. I  don't think this is what Jim meant or would apply to someone unknowingly being drugged and raped..
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    Jim Butcher  Yeah, but all your choices count, man. Not just the ones where someone says, "Are you absolutely sure about your answer."

    Making a choice is stating who you are. Unequivocally. You can talk as much as you want about whatever goodness you want--your actions are what matter. Those choices, in some cases to /take lives/, weren't subconscious.

    Molly said, "I'm in line with Winter." A BUNCH of times. And making statements like that add up--not because you're initialing a point on a contract for a lawyer, but because you are /changing yourself/ by making choices like that.

    Creating life, ending life. Those are the heaviest hitting choices, the ones that truly matter, the ones that are irrevocable.

    Choosing not to be self-aware enough to own what you're doing is a choice as well. One Molly didn't make. She knew about bargains. She knew the score. She didn't know how deep was the water she was getting into, but she ran and jumped off the cliff.
While true, Molly made choices, she had some idea of what they were, but she chose not to think that there would be consequences down the road for accepting Lea's "training.."  Not the same at all as accepting a drink because you are thirsty or to be sociable without the anticipation that it might be drugged and you could end up having sex against your will.. Especially if you have no clue that the person you are with is capable of drugging that drink..  It isn't the same as drinking to the point of drunkenness, that is a choice..  But even the consequences of that are not totally the victim's fault in the eyes of the law..   

But let's go back to Molly's original choice, to go into the minds of her friends to "help" them stop their addiction...  Her friends did chose to take drugs to the point of doing physical harm to themselves.. However that did not acquit Molly from her choice to break the Law by entering their minds without their permission to alter them.  Her friend have to be responsible for their original choices, but so does Molly..

Yes, while it is a choice to accept a drink or to drink from a glass or cup handed to you, your responsibility... That doesn't get the one who drugged the drink in the first place to have sex against the other person's will off the hook in terms of responsibility.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 04:05:45 AM by Mira »

Offline groinkick

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #187 on: August 08, 2018, 06:45:28 AM »
That doesn't get the one who drugged the drink in the first place to have sex against the other person's will off the hook in terms of responsibility.

Since when does responsibility matter to the laws?  Harry could go on a raping spree and the White Council wouldn't care unless he violated the laws which the potions don't.

The laws aren't about morality. 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 06:47:02 AM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Wizard Sibelis

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #188 on: August 08, 2018, 09:00:04 AM »
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But wizards are not the Fae, are they?  And DUDE, this smacks of blaming the victim.. I  don't think this is what Jim meant or would apply to someone unknowingly being drugged and raped..
actually he applied it to life and yea, I wanted to argue about it's validity in the DF with him for an entirely different reason, but I don't think our opinions of what's what matters to what IS what here...
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Jim Butcher  Yeah, life is basically like that as well.
Jim Butcher  You learn /after/ you do something massively stupid
Being ignorant of the existence of date rape seems to be a willful choice in ignorance. SO DUDE! I don't need that kinda opinionated vitriol flung my way thanks... on a topic that's not supposed to relate to real world morality, that's directly the point of contention that Margret had with them fyi.
*you'll find it quite unprovable that wizards are not related to or capable of becoming the fae. Indeed Molly's latent heritage and magical ability coincide with the possibility.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 09:02:32 AM by Wizard Sibelis »

Offline Mira

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #189 on: August 08, 2018, 11:55:28 AM »
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Being ignorant of the existence of date rape seems to be a willful choice in ignorance. SO DUDE! I don't need that kinda opinionated vitriol flung my way thanks... on a topic that's not supposed to relate to real world morality, that's directly the point of contention that Margret had with them fyi.

Thou flungist DUDE thine way first, so it was merely flung back at thou.....

Who says it has to be date rape?  Fantasy is merely a reflection of real world morality, why then have the Seven Laws in the first place?  Mainly to keep those with magical powers from taking unfair advantage of vanilla humanity...   What was the Korean kid and Molly guilty of?  Messing over another wizard?  No, screwing with the minds of vulnerable vanilla humans...  Use of magic to kill is seen as a perversion of magic, seems to be a rather moral view of it to me...  Someone is just as dead if the means is with a gun or a fire spell..
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*you'll find it quite unprovable that wizards are not related to or capable of becoming the fae. Indeed Molly's latent heritage and magical ability coincide with the possibility.

That wasn't the point, the point being the fae are not subject to wizard law...  Molly may be the exception because she is a wizard and now is Winter Lady... However I doubt that anyone on the Council will test that out least they piss off the whole of the fae world by severing her lovely head from her body for breaking the 3rd Law..
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Since when does responsibility matter to the laws?  Harry could go on a raping spree and the White Council wouldn't care unless he violated the laws which the potions don't.

The laws aren't about morality. 

I'd argue that they would if he used magic in any way to do his raping..  Guns don't kill people, people using guns do argument applies here I believe...  Making a love potion isn't a violation of the
Law, but perhaps using one to alter another's mind without permission may be...

Wizard Sibelis

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #190 on: August 08, 2018, 01:08:07 PM »
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Thou flungist DUDE thine way first, so it was merely flung back at thou.....
Mine was excitable, you know, cause I had a recent woj nobody here had probably read directly from Jim's profile... Yours came with these morality questions I'm not here to discuss. I'm here to discuss the violation or potential of it in the fictional DF verse of a fictional universal law that only loosely is based upon real world morality as we know it, and is in fact intentionally set separately of it in the story in it's inception, not saying that's correct, but it's what IS.
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Who says it has to be date rape?  Fantasy is merely a reflection of real world morality, why then have the Seven Laws in the first place?  Mainly to keep those with magical powers from taking unfair advantage of vanilla humanity...   What was the Korean kid and Molly guilty of?  Messing over another wizard?
These really have no answers and are not germaine to the answer to this particular question, and I don't feel it's the responsibility of my particular viewpoint to solve these problems.
... Same as I realized the thing I was getting ready to bitch about(to Jim) was not that it didn't make sense but that I've experience just how unfair life can be in action to consequence and that had nothing to do with the particulars of the convo, but not knowing the consequences of any given action even through simple ignorance..(course the real question is why can the fae reach across the veil without doing harm to themselves internally)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 01:10:09 PM by Wizard Sibelis »

Offline Paviel

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #191 on: August 08, 2018, 01:49:22 PM »
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Making a love potion isn't a violation of the
Law, but perhaps using one to alter another's mind without permission may be...

If so, then Morgan (who at the time was always looking for a reason to harass Harry) would have harassed Harry about the woman who had just drunk and purged a love potion.

I maintain that vomiting up the love potion didn't completely purge it from Susan's system, based on the premise that it enters the bloodstream as quickly as alcohol does.

Offline Maz

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #192 on: August 08, 2018, 03:24:55 PM »
Alchemy might not work the same way as a direct form of magic because you're not casting it on the other person.  If I were to make a potion whose effects, under certain circumstances would violate the laws, would it taint me because it has the potential to do such?  If I made a transformation potion to turn me into a raccoon and instead a thief broke into my house and drank it down, thinking it was a beer, would I get stain?  It was a completely valid potion made with good intention - unless it were forced upon someone other than myself, the original intended user.  Or does the act of drinking it confer the act of will and instead it would be the person who drank it rather than brewed it be the determining factor?  Or none of the above? I don't know the answer and I think only Jim could answer this.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2018, 03:27:43 PM by Maz »

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #193 on: August 08, 2018, 03:47:58 PM »
Hearing Mouse speak solid words plan as day, isn't hearing an emotion... and it would seem the gate and lock that keeps thoughts inside our heads, you know, where we keep our emotions, must have a natural broadcaster for someone else to be the receiver without help... Mmmm. Guess we do have a entrance.
I went and checked, and Molly does indeed mention Mouse's thoughts. Her line is, "It's something I picked up. A dog's thoughts and emotions are a lot more direct and less conflicted than a human's. It's easier to listen for them. It isn't a big deal."

The way she describes it as something she "picked up" and "listens" for, it sounds like surface thoughts or a "language" that Mouse is speaking -- note that before each of her translations, there's also a description of Mouse's deliberate body language. It appears to be Mouse that's doing something to make himself be heard, not Molly doing something to look into his mind.

Combine that with what we see in Zoo Day -- Mouse "talks" to monkeys, lions, otters, and several other animals in what appear to be complete sentences. Unless we're positing that monkeys, lions and otters are also psychic sensitives, then it seems there is an animal language that Molly simply learned how to understand (if aided by her natural sensitivity to thoughts and emotions).

There's also this bit from Changes that supports the idea:

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I was on my feet before anyone else. I eyed the dog and said, “You can talk. How come I never hear you talk?”
“Because you don’t know how to listen,” my godmother said simply.

We have now cleared that up. :)I lost track, Turn Coat it is. And let Molly burn he did.  Which makes for good drama.  But it makes Harry look like a self righteous ass.  The whole next book is mostly about showing Harry that.  Right and wrong doesn't change because you are under pressure.
Indeed, it doesn't -- but how one acts and reacts to their choices does change. My point wasn't that the situation somehow made right something that had been wrong before -- it was that Harry didn't care at that point that it was wrong because he was that desperate.

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There is no definitive way to say where the line is on mind magic.  JB won't lay down the law, other than to say it is banned by the WC.  However when it's convenient he will use it.  When Elaine is under attack in White Knight, Harry not only hears her he hears the vampire. That's pretty far in without consent.  Even if they had used the spell previously.  Anyway I think this is moving off point.  So I'll let it lay.
I think that interaction fell under "surface thoughts," or hell, might even have been the vampire literally speaking aloud to Elaine. Or, as Peregrine suggested, it might have been a result of the vampire already working to break into her mind.

So, given everything up to now, I'm positing thus:

1. Soul stuff and mind stuff, while related, are separate in that souls are outward facing and can easily be shared by something as simple as a smile or a hug, while the mind is internal, your private self, and behind a "fundamental" barrier, as the RPG book puts it.

2. Getting past that fundamental barrier violates the Third Law. It might be done "gently," or even with consent, but it's still a barrier you have to get through, meaning you've damaged it, and you have way too much power to muck about once you're in.

3. There are "layers" to the mind, and outside that "fundamental barrier," there is a sort of transmitter/receiver effect, such that surface thoughts and emotions can be broadcast out and passively sensed by those with an ability for it, without having to actually use any magic. This would explain why communications spells and suggestions don't break the law -- they're only affecting the outer surface, not breaking through the barrier.

It's kind of like a computer, come to think of it.

Surface thoughts are like Discord or Steam Chat. You can project to the world your "surface thoughts" and those with the capability of reading them (your friends list) can see them, and even see when you're on and what you're playing without actually speaking to you.

Behind that fundamental barrier, though, is your computer itself. Normally, you have it password protected, and yes, you can give someone else the password and they might well use it in an entirely benign way, but even then you're probably looking over their shoulder, wondering when's the last time you cleared your browsing history and hoping to God that they don't start their internet search with certain letters like "p."

If they don't know what they're doing, they might accidentally erase something you wanted to keep, or see something you wanted to keep private.

If they do know what they're doing, they could outright steal your files, change your settings or turn the whole thing into a brick.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Wizard Sibelis

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #194 on: August 08, 2018, 04:34:33 PM »
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The way she describes it as something she "picked up" and "listens" for, it sounds like surface thoughts or a "language" that Mouse is speaking -- note that before each of her translations, there's also a description of Mouse's deliberate body language. It appears to be Mouse that's doing something to make himself be heard, not Molly doing something to look into his mind.
Sounds like non verbal cues and other non verbal communication which humans still possess though most don't know how to listen, hence molly actually understanding what she's hearing instead of interpreting it. I'd say that's possible to be read on anyone, and indeed when Harry is feeling more animalistic Molly does notice.(compared to people realizing someone wishes them harm before they totally spring the assault)

Though one wonders how solid this barrier is when people like Molly exist who can't block at all, implying a great many people with empathy have a thinner barrier.