Author Topic: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?  (Read 57769 times)

Offline peregrine

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #165 on: August 07, 2018, 03:30:45 PM »
Doesn't the law against transformation also specifically mention that you can't transform someone against their will?  So obviously consent makes a difference in more situations than just mental magic.

Offline Paviel

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #166 on: August 07, 2018, 03:33:37 PM »
Yes, and the Hexenwolf belts are an exception to the "transform against their will" rule specifically because a person consents to the transformation by willingly putting on the belt.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #167 on: August 07, 2018, 03:38:38 PM »
I'm gonna put the game books' write-up of the third law here, because it's saying a lot of the same things I am:

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Pertinent bits bolded.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #168 on: August 07, 2018, 03:48:17 PM »
And Harry's reaction when he learns Molly looked into him is instructive:

Quote
I shivered. Ugh. Molly playing in my head. That wasn’t
necessarily the prettiest thing to think about. Molly had a gift for
neuromancy, mind magic, but she’d used it to do some fairly nasty
things to people in the past—for perfectly good reasons, true, but
all the same it had been honest-to-evilness black magic. It was the
kind of thing that people got addicted to, and it wasn’t the kind of
candy store that I would ever want that kid to play in.
Especially considering that the inventory was me.
“Hell’s bells, Michael,” I murmured. “You shouldn’t have done
that to her.

Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Offline Paviel

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #169 on: August 07, 2018, 03:50:48 PM »
The operative words seem to be "invasion" and "violation." You don't consent to an invasion or a violation.

Or to put it another way, if you do consent, it isn't an invasion or a violation.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 03:52:45 PM by Paviel »

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #170 on: August 07, 2018, 05:17:29 PM »
I dispute that it is "perfectly natural," because if it was natural, why would you need magic to get in? You don't need magic to share soul bits. But to get into a mind, you have to work a spell to get in.
Consider a soul gaze.  You are forced into it.  You can't control it through any act of yours.  You can't initiate one, only a Wizard can.  Is that natural?  It seems pretty invasive.

Erecting defenses doesn't necessarily mean there's a valid entry. If I wear a helmet, that doesn't mean that otherwise there's a "perfectly natural" way for things to get into my skull otherwise. Prison windows that have no latch or hinges to open nonetheless have bars in them -- does that mean without the bars, they're a "natural" entry?
We're quibbling over the word natural.  A skull serves a purpose to protect the thing it surrounds.  It exists because the thing inside of it can be damaged if it didn't. If there were no such threat they wouldn't have evolved.  The phrase natural is a question begging term.

And Harry's reaction when he learns Molly looked into him is instructive:
Not very, since in Changes he is pretty blase about her altering his mind.  Just because he wanted to cheat Mab. If Micheal was ignorant of the risks, Harry certainly wasn't. Those who live in glass houses....


Offline peregrine

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #171 on: August 07, 2018, 05:47:14 PM »
But all of those quotes from the game use the same terms.  Breaking in, invasion, violating.  For the house analogy, what if someone gives you the key? The key in this case being permission.  Unlocks the door.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #172 on: August 07, 2018, 06:12:39 PM »
Not very, since in Changes he is pretty blase about her altering his mind.  Just because he wanted to cheat Mab. If Micheal was ignorant of the risks, Harry certainly wasn't. Those who live in glass houses....
Harry, the guy who does not want to use his magic to heat his shower out of fear of becoming a warlock, was trying to teach the why use magic in stead of the how just like his mentor Ebenezer.

Of course Harry was not happy about it. Reading someones mind for danger might be something grey that Lucio did not worry too much about but Harry wanted to protect Molly from further temptation. Lucio undermined that.

And that came back to Lucio at Turncoat.

And it also shows that we have to be careful about what Harry and Morgan say about the laws, there are far more lenient interpretations available from their boss.

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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #173 on: August 07, 2018, 06:13:42 PM »
The operative words seem to be "invasion" and "violation." You don't consent to an invasion or a violation.

Or to put it another way, if you do consent, it isn't an invasion or a violation.
"The act" seems to refer to entry into another's mind. If "the act" only referred to "invasion" and "violation," it would be redundant and unnecessary for it to, effectively, say, "an invasion is always a violent invasion."

Consider a soul gaze.  You are forced into it.  You can't control it through any act of yours.  You can't initiate one, only a Wizard can.  Is that natural?  It seems pretty invasive.
I have considered it. See before, where I posit and argue that soul stuff is fundamentally different from mind stuff -- hell, people share and spread their souls around by accident. To my knowledge, nobody has been able to "accidentally" read someone else's mind.

Quote
We're quibbling over the word natural.  A skull serves a purpose to protect the thing it surrounds.  It exists because the thing inside of it can be damaged if it didn't. If there were no such threat they wouldn't have evolved.  The phrase natural is a question begging term.
I don't see how all of that doesn't also apply to the mind. The game text makes it pretty clear that there is a fundamental barrier there -- it serves a purpose to protect the thing it surrounds (the mind). It exists because the thing inside of it (the mind) can be damaged if it didn't.

Quote
Not very, since in Changes he is pretty blase about her altering his mind.  Just because he wanted to cheat Mab. If Micheal was ignorant of the risks, Harry certainly wasn't. Those who live in glass houses....
"Blasé" and "just because" are not terms I would use to characterize Harry having his apprentice blank out parts of his mind in pure desperation before he sells his soul to an evil faerie queen as a last resort before a mission that's only going to get more suicidal the longer it goes on.

He's not having her do it to forget a bad TV show he watched. He's doing it because he's going to kill himself. His alternative plan was literally joining up with a Fallen Angel from Hell. There is nothing "blasé" about that exchange. It's clearly presented as a last resort that he's only doing now because he feels there's no other choice.

But all of those quotes from the game use the same terms.  Breaking in, invasion, violating.  For the house analogy, what if someone gives you the key? The key in this case being permission.  Unlocks the door.
And yet it says "no matter how gentle," and establishes right off the bat that there is a fundamental barrier that exists between one mind and the next.

The text effectively equates "crossing" with "invasion." The section on Psychomancy itself begins:

Quote
Practitioners that read and manipulate minds
are called psychomancers (or sometimes neuromancers).
Given that these acts violate the
Third and Fourth Laws of Magic
, they may also
be called headless, thanks to the action of the
Wardens. Psychomancy is neither well documented
nor condoned, though it seems every
now and again some new wizard comes along
with a talent for it, trained or not. The Council
does its best to intercede as quickly as possible
in such cases.
No qualification there, no mention of "invasion." It just puts it plainly: Reading another's mind violates the Third Law.

The book describes reading dead folks' thoughts as grey but "mostly" safe, and that empathy is enhancing your own ability to perceive, not reading into someone else's head.

The only straight-up, no-grey, legal psychomancy the write-up mentions is doing it on yourself, for things like supercharging your brain, digging up your memory, etc., but adds it's very dangerous, noting, "Just because you’re doing it to yourself doesn’t make the act any less violent."
« Last Edit: August 07, 2018, 07:51:44 PM by Mr. Death »
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast

Wizard Sibelis

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #174 on: August 07, 2018, 06:25:29 PM »
The operative words seem to be "invasion" and "violation." You don't consent to an invasion or a violation.

Or to put it another way, if you do consent, it isn't an invasion or a violation.
It's inaccurate anyway... Molly hears people cause thoughts are loud, she doesn't have to reach.. One of the reasons the game is not the books...

Offline Paviel

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #175 on: August 07, 2018, 08:08:00 PM »
Molly never got tainted for what she did to Harry in "Changes," so clearly that wasn't nearly as bad as what she did to her friends in "Proven Guilty."

And the main difference, as far as I can see, is that Harry consented to what she did in "Changes."

Offline morriswalters

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #176 on: August 07, 2018, 08:19:04 PM »
"Blasé" and "just because" are not terms I would use to characterize Harry having his apprentice blank out parts of his mind in pure desperation before he sells his soul to an evil faerie queen as a last resort before a mission that's only going to get more suicidal the longer it goes on.
Reread the part in Proven Guilty when Mouse gets shot.  Reconcile what Harry tells Molly then, with what he asks of her in Changes.
I have considered it. See before, where I posit and argue that soul stuff is fundamentally different from mind stuff -- hell, people share and spread their souls around by accident. To my knowledge, nobody has been able to "accidentally" read someone else's mind.
I don't see how all of that doesn't also apply to the mind. The game text makes it pretty clear that there is a fundamental barrier there -- it serves a purpose to protect the thing it surrounds (the mind). It exists because the thing inside of it (the mind) can be damaged if it didn't.
I don't own the game so I'll leave it to you to take whatever you want away from it.  However given that Molly had no formal training in Proven Guilty, than it is obvious to me that she did indeed read a mind by accident.  If as a later poster has suggested that other minds are broadcasting than they need to shut their windows. :)

If your point is the third law says any mind magic is forbidden, than you are correct.
If your point is that the council would never use it, you have failed to convince me.
If you say soul stuff is different than mind stuff, you are entitled to your opinion.  My opinion is that they are different sides of the same coin.
To be honest I have no idea of what the stain is or how it works.  For the purpose of avoiding headaches I treat it like Heroin. 
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #177 on: August 07, 2018, 08:35:48 PM »
Reread the part in Proven Guilty when Mouse gets shot.  Reconcile what Harry tells Molly then, with what he asks of her in Changes.I don't own the game so I'll leave it to you to take whatever you want away from it.  However given that Molly had no formal training in Proven Guilty, than it is obvious to me that she did indeed read a mind by accident.  If as a later poster has suggested that other minds are broadcasting than they need to shut their windows. :)

If your point is the third law says any mind magic is forbidden, than you are correct.
It is very clear that only invading minds is forbidden, you can invite someone in your mind to do all kind of things except enthrallment, that has a seperate law.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #178 on: August 07, 2018, 08:47:03 PM »
Doesn't the law against transformation also specifically mention that you can't transform someone against their will?  So obviously consent makes a difference in more situations than just mental magic.

  Well, if a person unknowingly drinks a love potion, that is transforming someone against their will.  One may consent or accept a drink, but would one consent if one knew there was something in it to make them do what he or she didn't want to do?

Wizard Sibelis

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Re: Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?
« Reply #179 on: August 07, 2018, 08:53:17 PM »
Molly accidently reads Harry's mind when he's thinking about sexing her up, yet she never reached, mouse too coincidently.
Quote
When you break into someone
else’s mind
everything there after denotes that original concept, that it's done without permission. Hence the grey area of healing(by GK) or mutual battles between pretty much every wizard who does combat during the war.

*coincidently, the Original Merlin has worked on freeing thralls and GK, 'the last cycle's Harry', is apparently the go to guy to work out psychic twisting.