Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?

[Sir Huron Stone]

A lust potion in itself is not even immoral. You can share it with your spouse on a nice holliday.

True.

[Mira]

From Turncoat:

And it goes on and on. The laws of magic have nothing to do with morality as explained by Captain Luccio.

And Margaret was right, without justice there is no point.  Common thugs can give a neighborhood protection, but who wants to live under the rule of thugs?   Morgan's long harassment of Harry was about enforcing the Law, in the end as he died he realized it is also about justice and morality and he was wrong.

[peregrine]

And Margaret was right, without justice there is no point.  Common thugs can give a neighborhood protection, but who wants to live under the rule of thugs?   Morgan's long harassment of Harry was about enforcing the Law, in the end as he died he realized it is also about justice and morality and he was wrong.

Well, when the thug is charming and intelligent enough, and hangs out with the right people, sometimes people compare him to King Arthur.

[groinkick]

And Margaret was right, without justice there is no point.  Common thugs can give a neighborhood protection, but who wants to live under the rule of thugs?   Morgan's long harassment of Harry was about enforcing the Law, in the end as he died he realized it is also about justice and morality and he was wrong.

Morgan wasn't a thug.  He truly believed Harry was a cold blooded killer.  He realized he was wrong in that Harry wasn't who he thought he was.  You have deemed the love drug a rape drug, if you honestly believed someone had used it would you treat them kindly?

[Arjan]

And Margaret was right, without justice there is no point.  Common thugs can give a neighborhood protection, but who wants to live under the rule of thugs?   Morgan's long harassment of Harry was about enforcing the Law, in the end as he died he realized it is also about justice and morality and he was wrong.

The laws of magic are a human creation maintained and interpreted by a human organization and that organization does not agree.

To change the laws of magic to something else you have to change the council. Most of the council will resist such a change and Luccio spend a few pages in Turn coat to explain why such a change is not a good idea.

If you say the laws of magic should be about morality then we can have a discussion why that is a good or a bad idea. If you say the laws are about morality then the answer is simply no, they are not.

[Paviel]

I think the closest that a potion (any potion) could come to violating the Third Law would be by tying someone down and forcing them to drink it. And even then, no magic would have been used in that process, so it might not even count.

Under any other circumstances, consumption of a potion is voluntary, and therefore does not violate the Third Law.

[Mr. Death]

I think the closest that a potion (any potion) could come to violating the Third Law would be by tying someone down and forcing them to drink it. And even then, no magic would have been used in that process, so it might not even count.

Under any other circumstances, consumption of a potion is voluntary, and therefore does not violate the Third Law.

Doesn't matter if it's voluntarily taken or not.

Altering someone else's mind is a violation.

Besides, you've never heard of someone drugging someone's drink? Choosing to drink something doesn't mean you willfully and knowingly consent to everything that's in that drink.

[Paviel]

Doesn't matter if it's voluntarily taken or not.

Altering someone else's mind is a violation.

Besides, you've never heard of someone drugging someone's drink? Choosing to drink something doesn't mean you willfully and knowingly consent to everything that's in that drink.

The White Council disagrees, or else Morgan would have pressed charges against Harry for every potion he had ever brewed (all of which are mind-altering in some way).

Since the White Council has the sole authority to enforce its laws, and since it does not ban the production or distribution of potions, it follows that potions cannot be against the Third Law.

Immoral? Yes. Illegal? No. The Laws of Magic are not designed to legislate morality.

[Mr. Death]

The White Council disagrees, or else Morgan would have pressed charges against Harry for every potion he had ever brewed (all of which are mind-altering in some way).

What? The love potion is the only potentially mind-altering potion we've ever seen him brew.

The escape potion had nothing to do with the mind. Nor did his 'ordinariness' potion. Or his rejuvenation potion. Or the weightlessness potion.

Since the White Council has the sole authority to enforce its laws, and since it does not ban the production or distribution of potions, it follows that potions cannot be against the Third Law.

OK, I really do not know where you're coming from with this. Not every potion is mind-altering or has anything to do with any of the laws.

[Paviel]

Fact: Harry Dresden brewed a love potion in Storm Front.

Fact: Morgan never passed up an opportunity to get Harry into trouble as of Storm Front.

Fact: Morgan did not use the fact that Harry had brewed a love potion against him at the end of Storm Front.

Conclusion: Morgan does not consider brewing a love potion to be a violation of the Third Law.

[Mr. Death]

Fact: Harry Dresden brewed a love potion in Storm Front.

Fact: Morgan never passed up an opportunity to get Harry into trouble as of Storm Front.

Fact: Morgan did not use the fact that Harry had brewed a love potion against him at the end of Storm Front.

Conclusion: The White Council does not consider brewing a love potion to be a violation of the Third Law.

You're missing the fact that Morgan didn't know about the love potion in the first place.

I mean, yes, from Harry's explanation in other sources, it wasn't a violation, but the logic here just does not work.

[Mira]

You're missing the fact that Morgan didn't know about the love potion in the first place.

I mean, yes, from Harry's explanation in other sources, it wasn't a violation, but the logic here just does not work.

Exactly,  see we do agree once in a while....

[Paviel]

How could Morgan not have known about the love potion, when his job was to keep tabs on every magical move Harry made?

It's safer to assume, in the absence of evidence that Morgan didn't know about the love potion, that he did.

Or that brewing a love potion isn't a use of magic, and therefore the Laws of Magic don't apply.

[Mr. Death]

How could Morgan not have known about the love potion, when his job was to keep tabs on every magical move Harry made?

It's safer to assume, in the absence of evidence that Morgan didn't know about the love potion, that he did.

That logic does not hold up at all.

Morgan clearly and obviously did not know everything magical that Harry did, otherwise Morgan would not have assumed Harry was committing the murders in the first place. He also would have known that Harry didn't summon the demon that he accuses him of summoning.

That Morgan never brings up the love potion means he did not know about the love potion.

[Paviel]

I'll conceded that Morgan probably didn't know about the love potion.

But as a point of order: The Third Law says "Thou Shalt Not (Use Magic to) Invade the Mind of Another." Neither the production nor the consumption of a love potion violates that law.