Love Potion, Huge Violation of 3rd Law?

[Arjan]

Probably much better than something like viagra without the side effects of medicines. There is a huge market for it.

[Mr. Death]

Probably much better than something like viagra without the side effects of medicines. There is a huge market for it.

So long as nobody asks what's in it...

[Arjan]

So long as nobody asks what's in it...

Ah, marketing. The paranet.

[groinkick]

So long as nobody asks what's in it...

You know I think for something like this it would only be going around the Hollywood, or private society types...  A kind of secret potion that you must know someone to get a hold of.  Those types of people don't care as long as it works...  One of the reasons so many are hooked on drugs.  Also a wizard puts a lot of energy into a single potion.  If they were selling it they would probably want big bucks, another reason it would be going around the high society groups.

[Mira]

You know I think for something like this it would only be going around the Hollywood, or private society types...  A kind of secret potion that you must know someone to get a hold of.  Those types of people don't care as long as it works...  One of the reasons so many are hooked on drugs.  Also a wizard puts a lot of energy into a single potion.  If they were selling it they would probably want big bucks, another reason it would be going around the high society groups.

 But where does it cross the line?  One can argue that making a love potion, though it clearly affects how the drinker thinks and acts, is a gray area because the maker really doesn't go into the drinker's head...  But how about Peabody's ink?  One can argue it is really no different from a love potion, but Peabody used it to control  or affect most of the White Council, including the Senior Council and Wardens, to the point where any decision made by that body in the past ten years had to be revisited.. That is mind control, Luccio was clearly being controlled by Peabody to do things she would never do, from murdering LaFortier to taking Harry as a lover..  If not outright breaking the 3rd Law, it comes very close to it.

[groinkick]

But where does it cross the line?  One can argue that making a love potion, though it clearly affects how the drinker thinks and acts, is a gray area because the maker really doesn't go into the drinker's head... 

You could make the same argument for alcohol.  Give a person a strong drink and you can take advantage of them quite easily.  The love potion in reality is nothing more than mixing intoxication with a powerful aphrodisiac.

Some people use those substances for mutual pleasure, others use it to take advantage of people.  Should we ban them all from existence because some people misuse them?  Rat poison is used to kill rats but some bad people use it to poison humans.  Should we ban that as well?

[Arjan]

But where does it cross the line?  One can argue that making a love potion, though it clearly affects how the drinker thinks and acts, is a gray area because the maker really doesn't go into the drinker's head...  But how about Peabody's ink?  One can argue it is really no different from a love potion, but Peabody used it to control  or affect most of the White Council, including the Senior Council and Wardens, to the point where any decision made by that body in the past ten years had to be revisited.. That is mind control, Luccio was clearly being controlled by Peabody to do things she would never do, from murdering LaFortier to taking Harry as a lover..  If not outright breaking the 3rd Law, it comes very close to it.

Peabodies ink just helped Peabody with his mind magic. Peabody invaded minds and changed them, Peabody enthralled wizards. The ink just helped him.

The potion is completely different because the drinker acts himself, it is his own decision.

[Mira]

Peabodies ink just helped Peabody with his mind magic. Peabody invaded minds and changed them, Peabody enthralled wizards. The ink just helped him.

The potion is completely different because the drinker acts himself, it is his own decision.

   Not so fast, if the drinker has no clue as to what he or she is drinking, it isn't his or her own decision... You can say that about the ink, Harry chose not to sign any paperwork Peabody presented him..  However that wasn't because he chose not to be influenced by the ink, ergo Peabody couldn't get into his mind..  Susan didn't chose to drink the love potion either, it was a mistake, if events hadn't gone down  as they did, or if Harry had been a jerk, he could have taken full advantage of her, even made her his love slave if he continued to slip it to her...

[Arjan]

   Not so fast, if the drinker has no clue as to what he or she is drinking, it isn't his or her own decision... You can say that about the ink, Harry chose not to sign any paperwork Peabody presented him..  However that wasn't because he chose not to be influenced by the ink, ergo Peabody couldn't get into his mind..  Susan didn't chose to drink the love potion either, it was a mistake, if events hadn't gone down  as they did, or if Harry had been a jerk, he could have taken full advantage of her, even made her his love slave if he continued to slip it to her...

The ink was never described as a potion, more like a material component of a spell. The ink on itself did nothing, it just made Peabodies work easier. It is more like Harry’s blasting rod. The ink would have no effect if Peabody was not around doing his magic.

A test of the inks he used to attain the signatures of the Senior Council for various authorizations revealed the presence of a number of chemical and alchemical substances that are known to have been used to assist psychic manipulation of their subjects.

The potion is different. We were discussing selling it as a drug which you can do only if you tell what it does, if you advertise it. It works without Harry even there.

It works more like the hexenwulf belts though I don’t think you get possessed by a spirit of lust. It brings a layer of isolation between you and the target of the magic, takes away the choice from you to that target.

It was not said with so many words but I did not get the impression that those belts were illegal. It was not the white council who stopped it.

"Hexenwolf," Bob said, with a strong Germanic accent. "Spell wolf. The Church declared war on anyone who chose to become a Hexenwolf, and burned a huge number of people at the stake."

Those things matter with the laws, not morals. If you talk about the laws of magic and you bring morality into it you just confuse matters. The laws of magic don’t stop you being a jerk or abuse people, they just bring limitations how to do it.

You can always summon a Fairy and bargain to let it do the law breaking, completely legal.

[Mira]

The ink was never described as a potion, more like a material component of a spell. The ink on itself did nothing, it just made Peabodies work easier. It is more like Harry’s blasting rod. The ink would have no effect if Peabody was not around doing his magic.

However he couldn't do it at all without the ink..  The ink did a lot, it made whoever got some on them vulnerable to Peabody's mind magic.  That is why he tried so hard to get Harry to sign something, which he refused and was the only one not affected.  Harry says the fact that he didn't hang around headquarters much was a stroke of luck otherwise he too would have eventually have come in contact with the ink and fallen under the spell.

Whether or not you want to call it a potion or not, the ink had elements of one...  Testimony during the trial.... Turn Coat page 386 the Merlin is talking here

A test of the inks he used to attain the signatures of the Senior Council for various authorizations revealed the presence of a number of chemical and alchemical substances that are known to have been used to assist psychic manipulation of their subjects.  It is my belief that Peabody has been drugging the ink for the purpose of attempting greater mental influence over the decisions of the member of the Senior Council, and that it is entirely possible that he has compromised the free will of the younger members of the Council outright."

So the ink was more than a device like the wooden tube Harry uses as a blasting rod..

The potion is different. We were discussing selling it as a drug which you can do only if you tell what it does, if you advertise it. It works without Harry even there.

It works more like the hexenwulf belts though I don’t think you get possessed by a spirit of lust. It brings a layer of isolation between you and the target of the magic, takes away the choice from you to that target.

It was not said with so many words but I did not get the impression that those belts were illegal. It was not the white council who stopped it.

Really?  Interesting that if the belts were so legal that they were all burned...  What does whether or not you sell a love potion as a drug have to do with violating the 3rd Law?  Spirit of lust?  No, but it does increase carnal lust pushing the drinker to want sex when they might not want sex, a violation of free will.

I say Harry wasn't a jerk because he didn't violate Susan's free will to decide whether or not she wanted sex with him under the influence of the potion... That has nothing to do with morals, it is whether he wanted to be a rapist or not..

[Quantus]

I will point out (mostly muddling the waters I think) that per WOJ the intent behind the spell does affect things, specifically along the line between Targeted magic and (in that WOJ example) Wards which were strong enough to kill FBI agents but arent illegal.  Large-scale manufacturing of a recreational drug would not carry the sort of directed animosity that is apparently important when talking about mental invasion. 

[Arjan]

However he couldn't do it at all without the ink..  The ink did a lot, it made whoever got some on them vulnerable to Peabody's mind magic.  That is why he tried so hard to get Harry to sign something, which he refused and was the only one not affected.  Harry says the fact that he didn't hang around headquarters much was a stroke of luck otherwise he too would have eventually have come in contact with the ink and fallen under the spell.

Whether or not you want to call it a potion or not, the ink had elements of one...  Testimony during the trial.... Turn Coat page 386 the Merlin is talking here

So the ink was more than a device like the wooden tube Harry uses as a blasting rod..

Really?  Interesting that if the belts were so legal that they were all burned... 

Legal does not mean morally right. You sometimes hear the argument that something is OK because it is legal,  that can point to a lack of morality in the person using that argument.

Harry correctly thought the belts too repulsive and dangerous not to destroy.

What does whether or not you sell a love potion as a drug have to do with violating the 3rd Law? 

I do not know but I got the impression that it was argued otherwise.

Spirit of lust?  No, but it does increase carnal lust pushing the drinker to want sex when they might not want sex, a violation of free will.

I don't know. What is enough of a violation of free will to matter seems to differ sometimes. Uriel would say that Susan still had free will. Just somewhat lowered inhibitions.

I say Harry wasn't a jerk because he didn't violate Susan's free will to decide whether or not she wanted sex with him under the influence of the potion... That has nothing to do with morals, it is whether he wanted to be a rapist or not..

Wanting to be a rapist or not definitively has something to do with morals but nothing to do with the laws of magic. Morals have everything to do with emotions and a lack of these emotions like guilt and shame can be seen as a mental defect.

But again nothing to do with the laws of magic. Harry would have burned those belts whether they were allowed or not. Harry has a lot of moral emotions.

[Quantus]

Fwiw, the TWG side doesnt seem to view being "Pushed" alone as a violation of Free Will (this is the Thrall distinction, methinks), given that a half-vamp that succumbs to their vampiric Blood-lust was still Choosing of their own Free Will

[Arjan]

Fwiw, the TWG side doesnt seem to view being "Pushed" alone as a violation of Free Will (this is the Thrall distinction, methinks), given that a half-vamp that succumbs to their vampiric Blood-lust was still Choosing of their own Free Will

That is what Uriel's 7 words in Ghost Story seems to make somewhat hollow. Sure, only Harry can change who he is but Mab knows from experience that if you push hard enough it will happen.

The potion does not take away your free will, it just lowers your inhibitions. You might not want your inhibitions lowered but a lot of things happen you do not want.

[Wizard Sibelis]

Fwiw, the TWG side doesnt seem to view being "Pushed" alone as a violation of Free Will (this is the Thrall distinction, methinks), given that a half-vamp that succumbs to their vampiric Blood-lust was still Choosing of their own Free Will

Gah, this whole thread seems to be forgetting one huge key, fae give out laced food all the time and they can't abrogate free will. Taking the food, even unknowingly, isn't violating free will. offering it, using it to your advantage, ect. If you look at the wording of the laws nothing about the potion is a mentally invasive presence, it doesn't bind or effect your mind directly, your not suddenly smitten with someone you dislike, feeling horny your not trying to jump a toad demon or similarly offensive being, Susan wanted Harry, the potion just made the idea louder, which we know is far from violations apparently. It's not like Merope inspelling Tom Riddle, it doesn't actually change your thought patterns at all...
*the ink was a mental catalyst btw, and probably a thaumaturgic connection to the vic, not a potion per say.
** an Harry says the belts were designed to be intentionally addictive, they weren't made simply to be used, but to corrupt in that usage.