Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?

[groinkick]

No they are not. The laws of magic are about restricting the use of magic, not about morality. Luccio explains this somewhere and there is also woj. Harry’s mother could not accept that either but that is what it is.

And with the laws of magic results are everything and intentions are nothing. There is also woj about that. If you by accident break the laws you are guilty. If you try however hard to break the laws but you don’t succeed you are not.

The white council can not kill every hack who wants to kill someone with magic but does not have the power or skill to succeed.

Molly’s situation was more complicated because she was already convicted, we do not know the exact implications of that but we know about Morgan and baby bunnies so don’t take his actions or words as what every warden would do.

My personal theory is that because magic comes from creation itself, black magic comes from the Outside which is why the wizard goes crazy.  So again its not about morality but to keep the wizard from going Outsider insane.

[Wizard Sibelis]

My personal theory is that because magic comes from creation itself, black magic comes from the Outside which is why the wizard goes crazy.  So again its not about morality but to keep the wizard from going Outsider insane.

Precisely my good Doctor Holmes(sorry, I get to be Sherlock )

[Fcrate]

Don't you mean Watson? Lol
Actually, groinkick, your personal theory suggests that we're not inherently capable of evil. I disagree. From my understanding, black magic isn't much different from white, both come from inside of you, you believe in both of them, it's just a matter of circumstance which one comes forth. Like healing a distraught mind attack victim instead of twisting him or her further to your own purposes. Like setting a whole party on fire, killing a few innocents to help yourself and your friends escape. Knowledge of the fact that there were innocents and  still choosing to kill them is black magic.

[wardenferry419]

Precisely my good Doctor Holmes(sorry, I get to be Sherlock )

Out of curiousity. What movie is that gif from?

[Fcrate]

Out of curiousity. What movie is that gif from?

Lol, I have exactly the same question, however, you quoted the wrong poster.

[Wizard Sibelis]

Don't you mean Watson? Lol

Face palm all day lol..

Actually, groinkick, your personal theory suggests that we're not inherently capable of evil. I disagree. From my understanding, black magic isn't much different from white, both come from inside of you, you believe in both of them, it's just a matter of circumstance which one comes forth. Like healing a distraught mind attack victim instead of twisting him or her further to your own purposes. Like setting a whole party on fire, killing a few innocents to help yourself and your friends escape. Knowledge of the fact that there were innocents and  still choosing to kill them is black magic.

I don't disagree that humans already possess that same alloy, but that doesn't make it inherently their nature. The yin-yang symbol is a great metaphor here, Yang is always yang even though it possesses yin, but what if it started acting more and more 'yin' over it's nature of yang? Would it not conform to a new identity? (I like to, btw, liken DR to that dot within the other, that balance of the two poles by containing at it's core the other)

[vultur]

No, it is not, go back and read Turn Coat the warning Harry gives her is pretty stern that her head was on the line along with his..  He made if very clear that she was violating the Laws no matter what her motivation was.

In Turn Coat, checking Luccio for corruption was definitely against the Law (as enforced by the Council, whether or not it would be corrupting). I think it was still justifiable, though.

In Changes, editing Harry's memory probably wasn't against the Law, since he asked her to. I think it was more morally questionable, though (not in the "black magic corruption" sense, just the regular human sense).

Like setting a whole party on fire, killing a few innocents to help yourself and your friends escape. Knowledge of the fact that there were innocents and  still choosing to kill them is black magic.

The bit in Grave Peril is a bit more questionable, IMO, because he didn't do it to help them escape, he did it to destroy the vampires. If he were consciously sacrificing innocents, sure, that would definitely be black magic. But the way it's written it doesn't seem like he was really aware that some of them were still alive, and he was at least partly avenging their deaths; it looks like he realized later (after he woke up with Michael), reviewing his memory of the events, that they weren't all dead.

[Kindler]

I think that is the same thing as the taint.

Personally, I think it's more that Molly keeps looking to magic to solve problems.

I don't think so. With the taint removed, if you explained to them that doing that did more harm than good, if their real motivation was to do good then they wouldn't do it any more.*

But even if not, a clever Blackstaff could get around that... You wouldn't have to attack their motivations at all, just make them not think of using magic in that particular way (exactly like what Mab did to Harry).

Well, both of these rely on each other, so first I'll point out that what Mab did to Harry was stupid, dangerous, and necessary. When Harry realized what had been done to him, he had a total freaking meltdown in Michael's shed. He literally did not understand the words "blasting rod."

That was after a day. Imagine what it would do to a person if it came apart after a month, or a year—suddenly realizing that you were not who you thought you were for an extended time. I think you'd have some fundamentally fractured psyches.

As far as the first, I disagree. I think you'll get some who will understand the damage they're doing, but there will be others who will see a problem that is too difficult to solve without magic, and they'll fall back on it, even if their intentions are good. I honestly think that the only way to make sure they don't do it again is if they set aside their magic, which brings me to my next point:

Well, it seems to have worked for Harry... the Winter Mantle temptations have nothing to do with black-magic corruption. He really hasn't shown any signs of that since he got rid of Lasciel's coin, arguably not since well before that (all the anger stuff in PG-WN might have been pure Lasciel influence; I'm not sure anything since GP is confidently attributable to black-magic effects).

Yeah, I know it's the Winter Mantle. I don't think Harry was ever tainted to begin with. I just think that he spent his childhood getting pushed around, then his teenage years getting abused, until he finally was strong enough to stand up for himself. Occasionally, he feels like using that strength to curbstomp his enemies. That's entirely normal; I get that feeling on occasion too.

But Molly certainly IS tainted.

Also, every time Molly uses mind magic after PG it seems pretty justifiable, even if technically against the Council's laws (confirming manipulation on Harry in SmF and Luccio in TC*), and Harry was willing in Changes so I don't think that even counts as against the Laws.

Yeah, and she's been entirely stable since Changes, right? What about all of the murders she committed as the Rag Lady? She has a meltdown explaining how easy it is to kill crooked cops with magic, and it's pretty obvious she's messed up, and not just from screwing with Harry's head.

I don't particularly care about the Laws, as I think that they're unnecessarily byzantine, but there really is no way to reform warlocks after a certain point, regardless of their motives. I mean, Molly was protecting Chicago, but still outright killing people with her magic, even though there were A) other options available, and B) she knew it would screw her up further.

[groinkick]

Precisely my good Doctor Holmes(sorry, I get to be Sherlock )

lol

[Mira]

In Turn Coat, checking Luccio for corruption was definitely against the Law (as enforced by the Council, whether or not it would be corrupting). I think it was still justifiable, though.

  Agreed, however for someone already under the Doom, I seriously doubt the Senior Council would give her another bite of the apple...  What Harry's point was that it is very dangerous for Molly to decide when it is or isn't justified to break the Law..  Remember that is what got her into trouble in the first place, not breaking a law she didn't know existed but thinking she could go into her friend's mind without thinking through the consequences... She hadn't learned her lesson is what he was saying.

[morriswalters]

I mean, Molly was protecting Chicago, but still outright killing people with her magic, even though there were A) other options available, and B) she knew it would screw her up further.

This struck me as not quite right, so I looked it up.  It's an interesting point.  She kills no one.  She simply presents an opportunity for people to see what they fear they might see.  The victims killed each other.

It's a little spooky ethically speaking.  Think going into a grocery store and handing the cashier typing paper that is made to look like money.  Immoral, but no laws broken.

[Fcrate]

This struck me as not quite right, so I looked it up.  It's an interesting point.  She kills no one.  She simply presents an opportunity for people to see what they fear they might see.  The victims killed each other.

It's a little spooky ethically speaking.  Think going into a grocery store and handing the cashier typing paper that is made to look like money.  Immoral, but no laws broken.

Which brings up the point: Why the heck was she starving? lack of imagination?
I say morriswalters is a villian in the making. FBI watchers, please take note and black bag him.

[Mira]

This struck me as not quite right, so I looked it up.  It's an interesting point.  She kills no one.  She simply presents an opportunity for people to see what they fear they might see.  The victims killed each other.

It's a little spooky ethically speaking.  Think going into a grocery store and handing the cashier typing paper that is made to look like money.  Immoral, but no laws broken.

However her first victims, her friends that she thought she was helping were seriously harmed by her entering their minds and trying to change their perception of things..  Yeah, the Law was broken, one isn't allowed to enter the mind of another... It is so strict that most members of the White Council have only the merest and ineffective defenses against an attack on their minds, they fear it that much... Molly and Harry were in violation to some degree by practicing on each other.

[Arjan]

However her first victims, her friends that she thought she was helping were seriously harmed by her entering their minds and trying to change their perception of things..  Yeah, the Law was broken, one isn't allowed to enter the mind of another... It is so strict that most members of the White Council have only the merest and ineffective defenses against an attack on their minds, they fear it that much... Molly and Harry were in violation to some degree by practicing on each other.

No they were not. They gave each other permission, they were invited. It was not an invasion. The whole word invade becomes meaningless if every entering is an invasion and a lot of obviously legal things become impossible like the gatekeeper healing people in turncoat.

[Mira]

No they were not. They gave each other permission, they were invited. It was not an invasion. The whole word invade becomes meaningless if every entering is an invasion and a lot of obviously legal things become impossible like the gatekeeper healing people in turncoat.

Yes, but remember when Harry would have died from his first encounter with the Corpsetaker but for Gard's intervention?  The reason he almost died was because of lack of proper training against mental attacks..  The reason for his lack of training weren't the usual ones, i.e. Harry's own laziness or lack of exposure to it because of Justin, but because the Council feared and prohibited any form of this magical training beyond the minimal defensive type.   So the Council prohibited it even if permission from the two parties was granted..   To their credit Harry and Molly both thought this was stupid and trained each other, however they did it in secret because it would have gotten them into a lot of trouble...  Enemies on the Council may even have gone so far as to declare it an infraction of the Law.