What's Odin's stake in things?

[Mira]

Just repeating Jim's words. 

Them being worried about Dresden, and considering getting rid of him isn't the same as carrying it out.  Now it's too late.

All I am saying is he didn't become Winter Knight until Changes.  Mab did name him emissary in
Summer Knight, but they were worried and wanted to get rid of them before that.. Perhaps they fear because Lea is his godmother?  Or there is more to it and neither Harry nor us know it yet.

[vultur]

Well, Harry didn't become Warden of Demonreach until Turn Coat, and that's what moved him from being a potential local-scale threat to a potential world-scale threat.

Early on, if Harry had gone full Dark Side, he'd have been a dangerous and powerful warlock but not as powerful as, say, Grevane or Corpsetaker. And early on, he was being watched closely enough that Morgan would have had a chance to take him down before he could do large-scale damage. So it wasn't worth angering Eb to try to kill him (directly; Morgan did try to goad him into a fight in SK).

But being Warden of Demonreach elevates him to a potential worse-than-Kemmler threat. If Harry wanted to, there's a pretty good chance he could destroy the entire White Council (extract a binding oath from some Mab-level entity to do it in exchange for being released).

[groinkick]

Well, Harry didn't become Warden of Demonreach until Turn Coat, and that's what moved him from being a potential local-scale threat to a potential world-scale threat.

Early on, if Harry had gone full Dark Side, he'd have been a dangerous and powerful warlock but not as powerful as, say, Grevane or Corpsetaker. And early on, he was being watched closely enough that Morgan would have had a chance to take him down before he could do large-scale damage. So it wasn't worth angering Eb to try to kill him (directly; Morgan did try to goad him into a fight in SK).

But being Warden of Demonreach elevates him to a potential worse-than-Kemmler threat. If Harry wanted to, there's a pretty good chance he could destroy the entire White Council (extract a binding oath from some Mab-level entity to do it in exchange for being released).

exactly.  Demonreach was the turning point and shortly afterwards he became Winter Knight.

Would Harry even need to make a deal with a Mab level entity?  If a warlock tapped into that lay line running through there he could probably take down the world.

[Quantus]

Would Harry even need to make a deal with a Mab level entity?  If a warlock tapped into that lay line running through there he could probably take down the world.

Nah, it's a damn strong Ley Line but by no means the strongest in the world, and most stronghold including Edinburgh and Chitzen Itza are situated on whole nexi of ley lines.  While a strong tactical resource, any one ley line is not unique enough in itself to challenge the world order.  Now, a pile of entities who's ambient presence alone leaks a ley line, that's a much stronger and rarer resource

[groinkick]

Nah, it's a damn strong Ley Line but by no means the strongest in the world, and most stronghold including Edinburgh and Chitzen Itza are situated on whole nexi of ley lines.  While a strong tactical resource, any one ley line is not unique enough in itself to challenge the world order.  Now, a pile of entities who's ambient presence alone leaks a ley line, that's a much stronger and rarer resource

Well I called it a ley line but is that what it actually is?  Gatekeeper warned Harry about it.  I suspect it something else....  Something like a drainage line that bleeds the prisoners power out somewhere else to keep them from escaping.  If Harry tapped into it I suspect he'd be tapping into the power of dark gods, and have their power at his disposal.

[Quantus]

Well I called it a ley line but is that what it actually is?  Gatekeeper warned Harry about it.  I suspect it something else....  Something like a drainage line that bleeds the prisoners power out somewhere else to keep them from escaping.  If Harry tapped into it I suspect he'd be tapping into the power of dark gods, and have their power at his disposal.

He'd be tapping into the magical equivalent of the /body heat/ of dark gods.  Not the same thing as actually tapping or controlling their real Power.  But yes, it is still just a ley line, the same one that Nic and all his magic-using nickleheads were tapping into during SmF without getting world-ending levels of power.

[groinkick]

He'd be tapping into the magical equivalent of the /body heat/ of dark gods.  Not the same thing as actually tapping or controlling their real Power.  But yes, it is still just a ley line, the same one that Nic and all his magic-using nickleheads were tapping into during SmF without getting world-ending levels of power.

Oh ok.  Of course they didn't stake claim to the Island and might not have full access to said Ley Line! haha

[groinkick]

Hey do you think that's how some of them may have become Nemfected or something similar?  Why Nicodemus suspects they are working with the other side?  They became vulnerable when they tapped into the Ley Line?

[Mira]

exactly.  Demonreach was the turning point and shortly afterwards he became Winter Knight.

Would Harry even need to make a deal with a Mab level entity?  If a warlock tapped into that lay line running through there he could probably take down the world.

Somehow I doubt that Alfred would allow that.   One reason Harry was successful doing the ritual the lead to him unwittingly into becoming Warden of the island in my opinion is the soul fire he added to his blood..   On the island Mab has to mind her p's and q's we saw that from her reaction at the end of Cold Days when Harry threatened to hand her over to Alfred when she threatened him..  When she came to get him in Skin Game she was careful to stay on the dock.  This is a max prison for monsters, demons and even gods,  whatever the power is, Harry has access to it.. However that doesn't follow that he has access off the island, but unleashing that power as we learn in Cold Days could take out the island and a goodly chunk of the Midwest with it..

[vultur]

Hey do you think that's how some of them may have become Nemfected or something similar?  Why Nicodemus suspects they are working with the other side?  They became vulnerable when they tapped into the Ley Line?

No -- they only do the Demonreach thing at the end of SmF, and one of them was working with the Black Council/Circle/Whatever for the attack on Arctis Tor in PG. (Unless time travel is involved, of course...)

I also don't think Demonreach has anything specifically to do with Outsiders or Nemesis. I think that the plan in CD was just to use it as a means to cause destruction and chaos.

[vultur]

exactly.  Demonreach was the turning point and shortly afterwards he became Winter Knight.

Would Harry even need to make a deal with a Mab level entity?  If a warlock tapped into that lay line running through there he could probably take down the world.

Nah, there's no way that it's THAT powerful. IIRC Luccio in SmF says that it's 1 of 4 major ley line sites in the area, one of the others being the Field Museum ley line which Harry used to reanimate Sue the T-Rex. The prisoners are really powerful, but the "body heat" ley line itself seems to be strong but not uniquely strong.

And even if it were, he only would have that power while on the island, which really limits what he could accomplish with it. At most, he could use thaumaturgy to explode people's hearts from a distance if he had hair/blood/etc... but Harry could do that anyway without Demonreach.

What makes the Warden really terrifying is the ability to release the prisoners (and use that ability as a bargaining chip to extract oaths from them first).

[Wizard Sibelis]

Nah, there's no way that it's THAT powerful. IIRC Luccio in SmF says that it's 1 of 4 major ley line sites in the area, one of the others being the Field Museum ley line which Harry used to reanimate Sue the T-Rex. The prisoners are really powerful, but the "body heat" ley line itself seems to be strong but not uniquely strong.

And even if it were, he only would have that power while on the island, which really limits what he could accomplish with it. At most, he could use thaumaturgy to explode people's hearts from a distance if he had hair/blood/etc... but Harry could do that anyway without Demonreach.

What makes the Warden really terrifying is the ability to release the prisoners (and use that ability as a bargaining chip to extract oaths from them first).

Uniquely evil/corruptive perhaps?

[Quantus]

Oh ok.  Of course they didn't stake claim to the Island and might not have full access to said Ley Line! haha

Anyone touching the Island can access the Ley Line, be it a Denarian or Sharkface.  The Power boost of Claiming a Sanctum is a separate thing that is channeled though the spirit in question (Alfred in DR's case), and is something that Harry has been tapping ever since (at least he did a boatload of it during TC) where by contrast he'd very specifcally never tapped that Ley Line because he thinks it would change him in dark ways.  He's tapped the one at the Field Museum and at least one of the ones at CI, but those werent as qualitatively "Dark" of energy

[Mira]

Anyone touching the Island can access the Ley Line, be it a Denarian or Sharkface.  The Power boost of Claiming a Sanctum is a separate thing that is channeled though the spirit in question (Alfred in DR's case), and is something that Harry has been tapping ever since (at least he did a boatload of it during TC) where by contrast he'd very specifcally never tapped that Ley Line because he thinks it would change him in dark ways.  He's tapped the one at the Field Museum and at least one of the ones at CI, but those werent as qualitatively "Dark" of energy

I believe what Rashid said was he wasn't ready to handle doing such a thing... page 299 Turn Co

"First," he said,"do not tap into the power of this place's well.  You are years away from being able to handle such a thing without being altered by it."

He could have meant it would turn him to the dark, but he didn't say that.. He only said that it would alter him, he may have meant simply that if he messed with it before he was ready he might be turned into a drooling idiot..

[peregrine]

Agreed.  It's hard to say how it might alter him.

Yeah, maybe it'll turn him dark because "you are what you eat" and he'd get warped by all the negative vibes.

Or maybe he just doesn't have the skill and control to handle that much power without getting injured, physically or psychologically.