What's Odin's stake in things?

[vultur]

Or maybe he just doesn't have the skill and control to handle that much power without getting injured, physically or psychologically.

Quite possibly - in Changes, after Harry uses the big ley-line powered gravity spell to kill a ton of blood-crazed Rampires, he tries to 'reach out with his will' to it again and gets freaky sensory feedback and mental pain. The Demonreach ley line might have similar effects amped up to a level that would leave lasting damage.

And the Gatekeeper says he's "years away" from being able to do it safely, which implies that it is possible - if it essentially shoved a chunk of dark power into your soul, like black magic corruption or a non-Outsider-linked Nemesis, I think that would change you regardless of how experienced you are.

Well, for one thing, saying that the winter mantle does not help against will attack is untrue.

Oh, I think it does help somewhat - when confronting the Lords of Outer Night at the sacrificial altar, he talks about pushing back with his own will and Soulfire and Winter. What I think is misleading is that Bob seems capable of providing essentially total protection, as do the Swords, whereas the Winter Mantle only helps a bit and wouldn't have been sufficient by itself (in that scene, Harry pushes back, but doesn't break free until Lea kills 2 of the LoON and distracts the rest).

Well, Harry ask for overt help like sending an army of einghenjars and Valkyrie. I am certain that Odin is sying the truth when he said he can't grant that kind of help.

I really, really doubt it. Odin can hire Valkyries and Einherjar out to random people like Marcone -- he had Gard working for him way before he had Accords status. So it doesn't seem that any special god-rules limit his ability to send Valkyries on missions.

If you think it through being the winter knight is great for Dresden.
Everyone gets way to hung up on Mab being unlikeable and ignores the big picture.

I totally agree the missions Mab's sent him on were all beneficial things. Harry does seem to view Mab's actions and goals more negatively than the facts really bear out (probably because most Winter Fae are cruel, vicious, and/or prey on humanity ... Mab is occasionally cruel about minor things, like the ice-in-Harry's-eyes bit in SmF, but mostly she's very much "cold calculation".)

However, the big issue with being Winter Knight isn't so much Mab being unlikeable/cruel as it is the corrupting influence of the Mantle itself, though. It often doesn't really seem "worth" what it gives Harry, especially since it comes with the iron weakness of the Fae.

It definitely gives him some physical advantages... but frankly he seems mostly less effective in CD and SG than he was in TC and the early part of Changes, when he had all his gear.

[Bacchus]

Odin a god of war for a very violent people.
just because he is likable doesn't mean hes any less cruel or evil than Mab when it comes to accomplishing his goals.
maybe Odin knows Dresden wont go full darkside and he thinks a slightly darker harsher Dresden will do better in the future.


Also maybe all those harsh murdery traits of winter are the side effect of pushing very similar harsh murdery traits that would be necessary for a nation to survive a very bloody, unwinnable and eternal war. or the mental traits of some special forces type who has been on way to many missions.


Also haven't we  seen Odin send out one Valkyrie and mostly to help out the same person. and there have been many times when a squad or 2  would have stopped a very bad situation.
hell he told harry he couldn't spare any of them for harry once didnt he?

and i don't know about the ejherjaren. the only thing i can think of that they have acually done was helping stop the time attack ley spell thing.
which is stopping the end of the world and wasn't their mythology very tied to being dormant until Ragnarök. the fact that odin has them out and about might be a very bad sign.

edit -
eh a high school kid with weapons could easily beat some unarmed special forces guy.
Dresden wont be without his gear forever and he will be able to rebuild it with much more skill.
 That to me is sorta independent of the winter mantle.

[vultur]

Also haven't we  seen Odin send out one Valkyrie and mostly to help out the same person. and there have been many times when a squad or 2  would have stopped a very bad situation.
hell he told harry he couldn't spare any of them for harry once didnt he?

Well... not quite. He doesn't quite come out and say that he can't... he just says they would be "less strong at the center of the Red King's power".

Which doesn't mean much if you think Odin is manipulating Harry - "less strong" than what?

and i don't know about the ejherjaren. the only thing i can think of that they have acually done was helping stop the time attack ley spell thing.

Nah, they serve Marcone as mercenaries. They're in White Night in the Raith Deeps fight. (Harry just doesn't know what they are yet in that book -- he assumes they're plain old mercenaries. But it's the same group of einherjar from Monoc Securities working for Marcone that is part of the Justice League of Chicago/Brighter Future Society in GS, which is how Murphy can get them to show up for CD.)

Dresden wont be without his gear forever and he will be able to rebuild it with much more skill.
 That to me is sorta independent of the winter mantle.

That's true, but it seems to me that some of the benefits of the Mantle will be less significant then, and/or somewhat redundant with stuff he could do with his gear.

The extra resilience with the risk of overextending himself actually seems pretty similar to the effects of his super-coffee potion in FM and bear belt-buckle in BR. It's not clear to me that if Harry made a similar item with his current level of skill, it wouldn't be at least as good as what the Mantle gives him. And his duster was a really powerful defense.

The extra physical strength is nice, but with his gear to boost his magic-based offense and make him more efficient so he doesn't run out as fast (and make shields quicker and better so monsters don't get in his face) he'd have much less reason to punch stuff - and Harry's used his force rings in combination with a punch before, IIRC.

The ability to use ice magic instinctively is cool, but I don't know how much actual utility it gives him -- is freezing a monster actually more effective at killing it than frying it or blasting it with force? There are some definite non-combat advantages, though -- Harry puts out a fire at Mac's and lifts the sunken warehouse with ice in CD. (On the other hand, Harry used fire magic to cool things down without the mantle - freezing a puddle to make the Scarecrow slip in PG, and freezing the lake to escape from the Water Beetle in WN. The warehouse thing likely was too big for him before, though.)

It certainly wouldn't be useless, even with his full gear set. But I'm not sure the advantages it provides would be worth the iron vulnerability* +  the risk of being driven "off mission" by the mental effects of the Mantle if he really draws upon it.

*Arguably being pierced by iron just turns off the Mantle's advantages, it doesn't really technically make him worse off than without the Mantle. But the Mantle's tendency to make Harry not notice damage still leads to it being a weakness in practice, IMO - being stabbed with a nail wouldn't have flat out incapacitated Harry in earlier books, he's generally pretty capable at pushing through pain.

[Kindler]

*Arguably being pierced by iron just turns off the Mantle's advantages, it doesn't really technically make him worse off than without the Mantle. But the Mantle's tendency to make Harry not notice damage still leads to it being a weakness in practice, IMO - being stabbed with a nail wouldn't have flat out incapacitated Harry in earlier books, he's generally pretty capable at pushing through pain.

Was about to say this. I think it's a net positive, even with all of the gear advantages. The nail incapacitates him because he's beat to hell, badly, likely concussed from the bomb and being in a car wreck. The second time, he's in even worse shape. But aside from all that, he's able to push cars, leap incredible distances, and pump out enough magic to lift the warehouse, as you mentioned. It's all heavy lifting stuff. Think about how much his gear can amplify or complement the Mantle's bonuses, and I think they will far outweigh the negatives.

Hell, just having enough physical strength and toughness to stay conscious during a beating is enough of an advantage for him, considering how often it happens.

[Quantus]

It was flooring him just fine in Cold Days, long before he got all his more recent mantle-driven damage accumulation. Floored fix too.  It was more than just turning the mantle off, it cause interaction/interference with the Winter energy.  In skin game I got the sense he was just better at managing the Mantle now so he was able to deal with it better than before.

[Bacchus]

i want to point out that injuries almost never leave iron inside of someone.  I was an emt/firefighter for a number of years and you just don't see things like that much. knives/etc usually don't stay in.

 like for 100 trauma calls or vehicle collisions you might get 1 where theres something sticking out.
and that seems to just turn off his mantle so if the mantle wasn't the only thing keeping him conscious he can quickly remove the knife/ect .
99 times out of 100 this magical toughness would be a godsend while once it will be a liability
i don't see the iron thing as much of a disadvantage
bullets are lead and i want to say are usually jacketed with non iron softer metals(copper/brass) so as not to mess up a guns rifling.
when he remakes his duster and isn't fighting naked it will become almost a non issue

the mental effects seem to be a super adrenaline rush which is the exact set of responses evolution has made so people are more likely to survive violent encounters.
If he were to become a lawyer or polititian it would be a liability but dresden is basicly a warrior and these effects already seem to have caused him to survive a few times  when he wouldn't have.

[Wizard Sibelis]

i want to point out that injuries almost never leave iron inside of someone.  I was an emt/firefighter for a number of years and you just don't see things like that much. knives/etc usually don't stay in.

 like for 100 trauma calls or vehicle collisions you might get 1 where theres something sticking out.
and that seems to just turn off his mantle so if the mantle wasn't the only thing keeping him conscious he can quickly remove the knife/ect .
99 times out of 100 this magical toughness would be a godsend while once it will be a liability
i don't see the iron thing as much of a disadvantage
bullets are lead and i want to say are usually jacketed with non iron softer metals(copper/brass) so as not to mess up a guns rifling.
when he remakes his duster and isn't fighting naked it will become almost a non issue

the mental effects seem to be a super adrenaline rush which is the exact set of responses evolution has made so people are more likely to survive violent encounters.
If he were to become a lawyer or polititian it would be a liability but dresden is basicly a warrior and these effects already seem to have caused him to survive a few times  when he wouldn't have.

Yea that was a lot of the point to Lacuna's Hook armor, barbs meant to break off or otherwise attach.